[Archive] My changes to LoA

RTMaitreya:

This pretty much nails it. The list was so clearly assembled by people who do not play Warhammer “seriously” or concentrate on writing and balancing rules. The values are simply out of balance within itself, AS WELL as imbalanced against other armies. Some units crazy ridiculous good deals, some units ridiculously bad deals. Why didn’t they just send the material to us? We figured all this out BEFORE THE DAMNED BOOK WAS RELEASED, for crying out loud. A single month of playtesting by this group could have solved a HOST of problems.



The issue is balance within the list - it’s way too obvious what’s good and what’s not, so why include the crap options at all? No one’s going to take them unless they have the models already, in which case it becomes a moot point.



Thommy H

Bassman:

 Why didn't they just send the material to us?  We figured all this out BEFORE THE DAMNED BOOK WAS RELEASED, for crying out loud.  A single month of playtesting by this group could have solved a HOST of problems.

RTMaitreya
and what is a non sense they would actually produced units able to SELL a lot models! Who is going to buy fireglaives now? I won't, they are a waste of money..... cool models, sure but are you really going to field them? :(

Bull centaurs with 3 attacks? They would sell miniatures to every Chaos Dwarf lover! If they followed the art they produced they would be great, I would buy them!

and so with the rest of the list......

MartyF:

Great post Grim,

A lot of very well thought out and sensible suggestions there that I feel would really improve the overall quality of the list.

The only things I’d possibly add/change, would to be to drop the knives from the hob gobs to an option, and reduce their points to 3.5.

Also rather than add scaly skin to the bull centaurs, just make them a little cheaper. 30-35 points seems reasonable to me, they are tougher and better armoured than Orgres but have less attacks and no ogre charge, seems like they should be similarly priced.

Caine:

Yea sorry about how i write. I work night and when i posted the last comment it was 7am after a 12 hour work day.

Its just that i love to browse this forum and i would start to be apart of it, but sometimes its like nothing can please the crowd. Its allways some guys who dont like the rules or models but more often then not its those guys that get herd.

As i said in the first post, i havent seen the new list. And i would love to get it in my hands after FW release it, but dont u think its early to start tinkering with points? Dont u think that u can make several builds with different strategies if u just take the time and experiment?

I would hate to see a army that needs a 1+ big badass monster since the rules are so good for it, but i hope and i will sure try to make a fun list with trains and gigants :smiley:

Sorry if i came on as a kid before all angry ^^

KingFisher:

I would like to see the magma cannon toned down, and the DQM buffed up bring it into line with the hellcannon, same value different utility.

I would like to see a combat lord, and or the BC hero getting the 75pts of gear allowance.

I want to see a return to configuration on units, point them for stat line and rules and then let us add the armor and weapons we want so each list can have its own flavor. Same goes for the characters.

We need some caster specific magic items, remove anything that can be duplicated by BRB gear.

Hopefully the GW rumor about allied armies will result in getting our 8pt warriors back. Here would be a good place to release the combat lord as well.

Really those are the main issues, missing combat lord/basic warriors.

Re-balanced war machines, and configuration for each type of troop with a basic point cost.

Obviously there are lots of rule questions that need to be FAQ’d as well.

rabotak:

those are my issues too - missing combat lord, missing warriors and the dqm… maybe lower ig- weapon options by 1 point. otherwise i’m pretty fine with the list, save these few things i think it’s well done… had a brawl against the new ogres last weekend, used id, 3x 25 ig (one gw, one fireglaives), bcs, and a lvl 4 on taurus, no fireborn, no destroyer so not what the community would call competitive, and it was a tough fight for both of us; from 3500 points per side only

±500. survived on each side, my opponent having big blocks of bulls, guts, 5 mournfangs ( which were killed by the prophet in cc in one round), cannon, maneaters etc.

i must say im impressed, it works much better than it looks. still, the aforementioned tweaks would

Hashut’s Blessing:

The problem with adding in 8 point warriors is that they have no role in the list - you have the cheap hobgoblins for fodder and the less cheap Infernal Guard for being tough: 8 point warriors are a needless middle ground where they’re not cheap and not that tough/killy. If it’s because of models, use warrior models as Infernal Guard and Immortals/Infernal Guard models as the pecial choice (forget the name).

For me, it’s mostly clarifications, a few points drops (equipment mostly), one more attack on BCs, maybe weaken the Destroyer, but buff/cheapen the DQM. Oh, also, have the Lord be less combat based or more combat based - having your Lord be the only access to LoHashut and being in combat, not using it, makes no sense to me: thusly, maybe add a combat character with mount access (although unnecessary - Castellans and BC Heores can do it. Even the Hobbo hero to an extent).

I just want it to be a little less startling in costs for things (a lot is overpriced), basically. I’d like it to be a case of choosing what to have based on game ability and points value, not on monetary value and model choice.

Obviously, yet to get the book and try some stuff out, but it’s my current thoughts on it.

Baggronor:

8 point warriors are a needless middle ground where they're not cheap and not that tough/killy.
Try taking 40 with great weapons. Killy.

aka_mythos:

...maybe weaken the Destroyer...

Hashut's Blessing
I hope you're speaking only in the context of all the other units being improved... I don't think we have enough viable units to demand FW neuter one of the units that actually works.

Baggronor:

I hope you're speaking only in the context of all the other units being improved... I don't think we have enough viable units to demand FW neuter one of the units that actually works.
Have you tried using it? Its IMMENSE :) Mine got charged by 3 Mournfang cav with the Dragonhide Banner and took no wounds. The combination of Burning Body and a 4+ ward makes it extremely resilient. I do think it should be toned down, however, as you say, the other units should be toned up at the same time.

MartyF:

Try taking 40 with great weapons. Killy.

Baggronor
Especially if they have hatred :)

Also if they were given the option of blunders you'd probably see a few blunder units used.

Hashut’s Blessing:

Baggronor: True, but killier and tougher are 40 IG with great weapons. My point is, if you want raw power, the IG have that, if you want lots of bodies, the hobgoblins cover that. The 8 point warriors can do neither role as well as the units we have.

I’ve read nothing but the destroyer being overpowered. I also think other things motsly need cheapening rather than being made stronger (with exceptions - like the DQM).

As I said before, these are based on the leaked list and other people’s comments.

Time of Madness:

The destroyer is about right in my opinion. The costs makes it so you can only take 1 in most point size games. It would really be broken if it cost 300pts and you could take 2 in a 2400pt list.

Time of Madness

Nicodemus:

I dunno guys, I realize I’m a lot less experienced with the gaming side of things, but my first real test of the list went great so far. 3-way SoM battle, 1500 pts Legion of Azgorh list vs 1500 pts Skaven vs. 2000 pts Daemons. I took:

Lv 3 Sorcerer-Prophet w/ Lore of Hashut

Lv 1 Daemonsmith w/ Lore of Fire

20 IG w/ FC and GWs

27 IG w/ FC and Fireglaives (Banner of Eternal Flame)

Iron Daemon

and from SoM:

Lv 2 Lammasu w/ Lore of Shadow

CDs cleaned house. Granted I had some lucky saves with my Chessex dice :wink: but I only lost a handful of models at the end of 5 turns: Sorc-Prophet on fulcrum to a Skulltaker in turn 3, Daemonsmith to a miscast in turn 5, 1 Fireglaive and 4 IG w/ GWs. The IG were pretty unstoppable and the Fireglaives managed to get off a fair few shots, including taking out a flammable Daemon Prince (thanks in part to Ash Cloud!).

The Lore is new and fun, but fluff wise I can understand why it is limited to prophets as the are the more elite within society. My Daemonsmith did just fine with Lore of Fire. Granted I didn’t get much chance to put his scatter dice re-rolls to the test, however.

Yes there’s a few things missed or just incorrect, a few things that have higher points cost compared to other armies, but there are far fewer things that need to be fixed beacuse they are apparent mistakes or oversights than the laundry list of things here. Yes there are a few units that don’t seem so useful, but I think we all need more time to play Warhammer with Chaos Dwarfs and less thought-hammer.

Just my two cents… and I haven’t said anyone is wrong :stuck_out_tongue:

~N

Baggronor:

Baggronor: True, but killier and tougher are 40 IG with great weapons. My point is, if you want raw power, the IG have that, if you want lots of bodies, the hobgoblins cover that. The 8 point warriors can do neither role as well as the units we have.
They are better than IG simply because IG cost 1.5 times as much and do the same thing though. Most of the time the difference in strength isn't a big deal - people mostly still die on 2s. The difference in armour means very little in melee too - T4 does most of the work. They are significantly better protected against shooting, but it isn't worth the difference. The key determining factor is they are still 1A WS4. Dwarf Warriors are the better deal by a long way.

The Hobgoblins, at 4-5pts each, are simply too expensive to be a good tarpit. 160+pts for 40? Not worth it imo, not in this list where everything else is so pricey. If they were a point cheaper, or if you could take them in 10s, then yes. I'll be spending my Core on overpriced IG.
I've read nothing but the destroyer being overpowered. I also think other things motsly need cheapening rather than being made stronger (with exceptions - like the DQM).
Assuming I have its rules right, the Destroyer is extremely powerful. I think 325pts is ok, but its just very, very hard. T6, 4+ ward and -1 to wound with non-magical attacks makes it so much harder to kill than any other monster, unreasonably so. I'd rather it was cheaper and softer. I would expect comp for it if LoA is allowed in tournies.

Regarding the other choices, there are fundamental problems with most of them that won't be resolved by making them cheaper; they simply can't do their jobs.

cornixt:

I prefer a minimalist approach to changing lists, no more than a handful. Micro-managing is the route to madness, you could spend hours adjusting the points/rules of things and end up with little real change. There’s a good reason why Magic Items and characters are rounded to 5pt values - it makes almost no difference.

I think the list could get by without regular warriors. Fluffwise, they wouldn’t be common anyway. The list seems a lot like Warriors of Chaos but with war machines instead of monsters and a lot less hitting power. Probably plays for the long game, grinding down the enemy slowly but getting killed even more slowly, only the war machines are great at killing, everything else becomes or is already overpriced when you use it to actively kill rather than just absorb damage.

Infernal Guard and their options should be reduced in points - this is the most important, since they will make up a big chunk of the army. Having them so costly will just make people take minimum core rather than buying this unit for their uses. Making shields optional will also help. Useful core is a critical part of an army list, making it flexible will give rise to a greater variety of different armies than can be made.

BC Renders need an extra attack, even if it means their price should be increased a little (I’m not sure if it does, their options are pretty expensive so may compensate already).

Dreadquake Mortar is just awful. It’s a huge model, so it deserves a high points cost, but it also needs to be able to dish out a lot of hurt and disruption, which it doesn’t. I’d like it to be a proper castle-killer with the option of taking out other stuff too, not just an expensive stone thrower. So basically it need a full rules upgrade.

The points costs of some of the other war machines and such sound a bit off, although I can’t say what the changes for those should be. I’m not sure if an extra 10 points on one and 10 off another will be a big deal for a balanced army, but for unbalanced ones…

ChungEssence:

CD Flame Cannon is completely broken. There needs to be a middle ground between this and the Dwarf Flame Cannon as they are roughly the same price.

Dreadquake Mortar needs the Big Template. Nothing to do with balance (increase the pts) but it’s a fricking Dreadquake Mortar, look at that thing. If that doesn’t have the big template then nothing should have one.

Infernal Guard are fine imo. They shouldn’t get a pt drop (from the Forgeworld site rules, haven’t seen the actual book).

Believe it or not there is a guy at my local Games Workshop who thinks the BB rules are too powerful and broken. Funnily enough this guy rocks double hydra’s and pendant at 2000pts… go figure.

The Magma Cannon is absolutely ridiculous for its pts cost.

Need to try playing with a Kdai destroyer

KingFisher:

CD Flame Cannon is completely broken. There needs to be a middle ground between this and the Dwarf Flame Cannon as they are roughly the same price.

Dreadquake Mortar needs the Big Template. Nothing to do with balance (increase the pts) but it's a fricking Dreadquake Mortar, look at that thing. If that doesn't have the big template then nothing should have one.

Infernal Guard are fine imo. They shouldn't get  a pt drop (from the Forgeworld site rules, haven't seen the actual book).

Believe it or not there is a guy at my local Games Workshop who thinks the BB rules are too powerful and broken. Funnily enough this guy rocks double hydra's and pendant at 2000pts... go figure.

The Magma Cannon is absolutely ridiculous for its pts cost.

Need to try playing with a Kdai destroyer

ChungEssence
I have never lost a round of combat with my K'daai destroyer I don't even know what the Unstable rule is Ha Hashut Laughs at the foes of his Avatar.

klemanius:

Believe it or not there is a guy at my local Games Workshop who thinks the BB rules are too powerful and broken. Funnily enough this guy rocks double hydra's and pendant at 2000pts... go figure.
I have that same guy at my store:~

While I will admit the magma cannon is undercosted, I don't think it fair to compare it to the dwarf flame cannon because frankly no one, anywhere, ever, would consider running a flame cannon.

Time of Madness:

It will be interesting to see if they end up putting out a FAQ for the list. There are a couple of small mistakes, but there is not really a whole lot to clear up.

I can’t see them adjusting point costs etc in a FAQ though.

Time of Madness