Firstly I’m not going to look at rules or stats here. There are far more dedicated people here who will want to type up every line. Not me.
I’ve not really wanted to discuss the contents of the CD list until I had the book in my hands.
2 lords. Both fairly good in combat and sorcerers. Not bad.
4 heroes. Castellan, Daemonsmith, Hobgobbo khan and BC hero.
So a combined engineer sorcerer lord and engineer sorcerer hero. Would have been better to split them methinks. Wasted opportunity there.
Hobgoblin khan and BC. Predictable but nice. No problems there.
2 core units, Hobgoblin cut throats and Infernal Guard. One of which is unlikely to get models!?!
Damnit. Why oh why couldn’t they just have copied and pasted the Dwarf warriors in? Major fail there.
Throwing knives for hobgoblins is nice, I suggested those here many years ago. Nice that hobgoblins are even there.
1 CD unit (Infernal Ironsworn)
K’daai Fireborn (ogre sized).
I can’t complain at all about the war machines, except that for an extra half a page in the book they could have given them a lot more options. Nice models though.
K’daai. As with the war machines I imagine the models will win it for me. Very cool concept, but at least one option would have been nice.
Ironsworn�?� After so many countless years of waiting, dreaming up dozens of cool and original ideas for an elite troop type. What do we get�?� Drumroll please �?� A magic hand weapon.
Seriously epic fail there. What a terrible waste. It�?Ts laughable. At least they can take a magic banner from the rulebook.
Wolf riders. Better here than nowhere I guess.
K�?Tdaai destroyer. Will be an awesome model I�?Tm sure.
Siege Giant. Sure. A heavy hitter
Overall I�?Tm impressed with a few things in the list, but seriously unimpressed with both the lack of imagination , the lack of options to customise and theme and the unforgivable failure to include basic warriors.
The Infernal guard are ok as a core unit I guess, but having a cheap CD core alternative would visually have looked so much better. All for a copy and paste job. It would have allowed everyone who had built up loads of CD warriors to use them, as some people can be funny about WYSIWYG and ones in chaos armour are noticeably different.
Ironsworn they might as well not have bothered.
I must admit I am very annoyed about that part of the list as I don�?Tt like the Infernal Guard models. Which cuts down the units I need to buy in half�?� But it�?Ts a damn shame really as I would have bought a load if they actually looked like CD and had realistic proportions.
The only saving grace for this list imo is that you can use it as part of a Warriors of Chaos List or a Tamurkhan list (presumably). That opens up more options rules wise (for those who are fussed) by allowing people to do �?~counts as�?T things. But is a less than ideal solution really.
Based on the chat I had with Keith, it seems like this is likely to be it for us for quite some time rules wise. No second book with an expanded fluff/ history and more models.
I think the new buzz word is CD Warriors = infernal guard. More effective, you don’t need as many, they fill up your core slots quickly, you can use whatever CD models you want for them. As for Ironsworn, I’m actually a huge fan of ensorcelled weapons, they are beautiful on Chaos Knights, You don’t lose the bonus when your not charging, you still get the parry save, no always strikes last, and you can take out things that require a magical weapon. What’s not to like?
The Ironsworn are exactly the same, except +1Ws and a magical hand weapon.
That’s lame really. Model wise and rules wise. I’m not saying a magic weapon is useless, just that it makes a boring elite unit. They would have done much better to give the Ironsworn the great weapons as an option and allowed them to upgrade those to magical as well. That at least visually would have looked better.
I guess my real gripe with this list is that they clearly wrote it from the POV of releasing as few CD units as possible. Which is a really lame way to write an army list that may be all we’ll ever get. They should at least have written in options for us players to fill ourselves, even if they had no plans to do it themselves.
The rules and playability themselves don’t really bother me, but the lack of options means fewer cool models to buy. Which is a great shame for me after all these years.
Ah well, if you want something done properly, do it yourself!
I would have split the list like this:
2, as presented. A little limited without a combat lord but fair enough.
Split the engineer part to a new entry and given him some cool weapon.
Put a line for CD warriors in.
Split Fireglaives/ blunderbuss into a separate unit that has the option to have Blackshard.
Taken off great weapon option.
Given Ironsworn great weapon option and something like Fear
Given the warmachines some basic options (possibly multiple ammo choices)
Tell me about it… I did apply. ;) It wasn’t too late to influence the CD list either, back in April last year.
Ah well. I’m sure if enough people are bothered they might consider adding the option for basic warriors into an errata in a year or two.
I think a better way of looking at why I’m not so happy with this list is that it clearly was designed to be a very heavily themed list, which completely removed the ability for people to theme themselves. I was told there would be a 2nd CD book that had more general options, but clearly that isn’t happening now. Which means we’re stuck with a very restricted list for the foreseeable, where if they had planned this one list alone from the start it probably would have had a lot more options.
Thanks for your frank input on the new list. It sounds like it’s an OK first attempt, but still lacking. I whole heartedly agree that leaving out Chaos Dwarf Warriors just seems out to lunch.
I guess all is not lost, however, if we stick with the Ravening Hordes Chaos Dwarfs counting as a Warriors of Chaos army, then adding in the bits we like from the Legion of Azgorh. At least that way the core Chaos Dwarf player community can start ASAP and make use of their CD Warriors. I mean really, why alienate the main community with silly fears that maybe it would cost too much for new people to get their hands on some CD Warriors on eBay? I mean, this is Forge World after all, it’s not like their stuff is any more affordable Not to mention, Hobgoblins aren’t planned from FW, but they’re in the list and seriously much more expensive than the plastic monopose CD Warriors! Time to go give my head a shake… that or stick it in a Blunderbuss!
I must be in a pessimistic frame of mind right now but given what you’ve all said I don’t feel thrilled about being forced to try and play a stunted (pardon the pun) half-arsed list. Makes me wonder why I bother.
Personally, i’m not too fazed. The way I look at it is that they’ve renamed Warriors to Infernal Guard, that’s all.
You’re right, the list could have had more done with it. Personally though, all I wanted was a list compatible with 8th edition and some cool new models. From my perspective, Warhammer Forge has delivered.
Sad news though that there won’t be a second more generic list in a later CD book. It would be a bit like in last edition if Empire players were forced to use the Middenheim list as a generic Empire list or if Lizardmen players had been forced to use the Southlands list as a generic Lizardmen list. In that respect we shouldn’t blame the list designers for making a non-generic list. It isn’t their fault that people further up the food chain decided not to make a future book with a more generic CD list in it.
concur, Wallacer. I’m happy to have something to work with, plus mixing in Warriors of Chaos rules really does keep the door wide for all kinds of zany counts-as possibilities; for instance using hobgoblins as marauders and letting them come in off of a table edge with a Wulfric stand-in.
I’m not that fazed by the dietary amount of chaos dwarf entries - there are enough weapon options to use all the old models, as well as self made models or foreign manufacturers. What i find a bit sad is that everything CD is horribly priced, in fact reducing the chaos dwarf feel a lot more than say, the small amount of actual CD units. I would have hoped that the list would be a huge success, not only while playing in your buddy gaming circle, but also at the shop down the road, or a tournament, or two. Alas, i fear we’ll see a fairly “skavenish” approach to competitive gaming: Guns, magic, monsters, slaves. (mind you: competitive gaming is not all that important in and of itself - but for more people to know and love the list, it should be quite fun to play against without looking like a goblin list with bigger guns…).
I am so upset about the lack of basic warriors it is hard to even put it into words.
I’ve been a strong Warhammer Forge supporter since it was announced that we would have a playable Chaos Dwarf army again. I feel like Forge World has strung us along and created a list that fits the range of models they wanted to produce. The draft French GD list is a playable army in my opinion not the Tamurkhan list which I feel is almost a complete disaster (because of the lack of basic warriors). I guess there is a reason why you never see Forge World lists allowed a tournys.
How can they justify dropping basic chaos dwarf warriors from the list? I can’t fathom how they came to that decision!!! All because they didn’t want to make the models. Would it have been that hard to keep them as an entry in the list and move the infernal guard to special (bumping the ridiculous Ironsworn out of the list).
Now we are left with a single dwarf core choice that costs 12pts and has unbelievably expensive weapon options. Can you name another man-sized core unit that has 3pt, 5pt and 6pt weapon options? I think even ogres have cheaper weapons. Most weapon options for man sized core units are 1 or 2pts at most.
Still stunned they did not include basic chaos dwarf warriors
I’m freakin stoked. My shop is going to allow this list in their elaborate campaigns. All my bighats are gonna be able to party. I’ve got a boatload of nightgoblins painted up as hobgobs. Might have to rebase my BCs but I was planning on doing that anyway with lava bases. Welcome back to relevance CD Generals.
Infernal Guard are Chaos Dwarf Warriors. I don’t know why everyone is so bothered by this. I said it elsewhere, but it seems like people are fixated on the idea that Infernal Guard were going to be the elite unit choice. Remember that this isn’t an army list for “Chaos Dwarfs”, it’s “The Legion of Azgorh”, a particular sect of Chaos Dwarfs that come from a particular part of the Dark Lands. Obviously they’re a bit more elite than regular Chaos Dwarfs. But, of course, you can use the Infernal Guard rules for your Warrior models anyway, so what’s the problem? If you need a rationalisation, just think of it as their Chaos mutations (horns, tusks, etc.) make them stronger as well.
All that will happen is that people will put their Chaos Dwarf warrior miniatures on the table and they will use the points and statline for Infernal Guard. In effect, Infernal Guard will become de facto Chaos Dwarf warriors.
As someone who is more interested in collecting figures than gaming i’m okay with that. I can understand why more hardcore gamers than me could find the absence of Warriors a bit distressing though. In all honesty I think people will get used to it fairly quickly though.
Fluffwise it makes sense too. The Legion of Azgorh is a themed list. There are no regular Warriors because for the clan presented in the Tamurkhan book Infernal Guard are what makes up the bulk of their Infantry (and Hobgoblins apparently).
For me at least, the cost is a non-issue. With GW’s recent pricing decision regarding Aussie/NZ customers buying a WF army is pretty much the same price as buying a regular GW one since I can still order WF figures direct from the UK.
Good write up Grim, agree with pretty much everything you have said.
For me it’s cost, most of the options are extremely poorly pointed. Ok, IG are the new core troop, I can sort of live with that, but I have to pay 3 points to get a great weapon on them! 3 pts? Even chaos warriors dont pay that.
If I want to field a blunder unit, its 18 points per man! I just can’t see me ever fielding them or Ironsworn, who cost the same as chaos warriors with great weapon.
I’m reserving judgement until I play, got a few games lined up for tomorrow, as there maybe some internal balance issues, but its hard not to feel slightly dissapointed.
First by the lack of options and secondly by the costs, which again reduces your options
hmmm… i must say i’m not sure if i’m fine with the list, i have to play a couple of games before i can really make up my mind.
still, from what i can tell at the moment, i guess after a test phase i will have to try to convince my gaming crew of some tweaks, for instance pricing of certain options like reducing points costs for blunderbusses and great weapons by a point, maybe also for ironsworn… it seems to me they tried to be on the safe side in regards to the whineseer community but overdid it a bit… i’m really interested what thommy h’s opinions are on this matter, as he seems to have the most experience concerning pricing issues…
another thing i’ll have to twist my head around is wolfriders now being rare… seems strange to me, i don’t really see the benefits of this unit (but i guess it doesn’t make to much of a difference being special or rare).
I get the impression they deliberately made them very similar so they don’t have to do any more models. Now that is lame. Would an additional sprue of elite heads and shoulderplates be that much to ask for?
I also read that BCs only have 2 Attacks? Reeeeeeeeally? So we get a huge base size for no damage increase? Ok, the extra wounds are nice but come on.
The prohibitive points cost for the core will also be a problem. They are still 1A troops… And how many points for a great weapon? :o
I get the impression they deliberately made them very similar so they don't have to do any more models. Now that is lame. Would an additional sprue of elite heads and shoulderplates be that much to ask for?
Its the laziest form of Army writing.
Then again, FW and WF isn't like GW in terms of writing codices and army books that are full lists, that they will go back to fill in with models later.
I'm thinking one of two things happened: either CD didn't sell well enough and they bailed on the concept deciding to not do anymore or its the opposite they decided to do more, but like the Imperial guard ranges for 40k they'll update them piece-meal in later books.
Given that Hobgoblins won't get models I tend to think we're very lucky WF included them at all. This is very uncommon of FW... prior to this FW's only done this with special characters.