[Archive] My thoughts on the CD list

Thommy H:

3 points for a great weapon is simply incorrect though, yes.

aka_mythos:

…at 3 points… is anyone ever going to take them?

Shimsham:

I haven’t seen the list in person but I am not surprised that a forge world list would be horribly incomplete. They are after all, miniature manufacturers, and not games developers, but I think what they have done is given us a fantastic opportunity. I believe the only reason why forge world and so many other miniature designers (eg Mantic) even bothered was because of the hard work and dedication done by this community. This is the best forum of it’s kind! The Indy GT list although lacking in some areas (blunderbuss) was simply breath taking in its professionalism. In fact, it was put together better than any recent army book! I think it’s major accomplishment was its acceptance in so many tournaments. As a community, CDO should build upon many years of rules development, the Indy GT book, and the new miniature released by Forgeworld.

We could be to the chaos dwarfs what blood bowl players are to bloodbowl. Bloodbowl now is totally supported by gamers, and has no input rules wise from GW, and I think that’s what makes it great.

We can now get back to what we’re good at now Forgeworld has shown all they can offer. I’d like to see an 8th edition Indy list tying all the best attributes from ravening hordes, the GT list, our own forum, and now the new range of miniatures. I feel we are so close to perfecting our own list ourselves. Forget forge world, that list has less cred than raving hordes!

Hashut’s Blessing:

I feel like the draft list was supposed to be a starting point and they might add a few more options, change some points and so on. It seems they just got bored after they’d made a few models though.

As for no warriors, Infernal Guard ARE the basic Chaos Dwarf Warriors. Ironsworn are like Ironbeards/Hammerers/Ironbreakers, compared to the Longbeard stylings of the Infernal Guard. Not sure why people are getting hung up on it - use your big hats/conversions as IG and then the IG models as Ironsworn.

I thought the Ironsworn’s hand weapons also conferred +1S. They sound really pointless, unless you plan to fight spirit heavy VCs a lot.

The prices for weapon upgrades are still THAT high? That makes the army nigh unusable, unless you stay bland and avoid upgrades. Hoboglin wolfriders in rare is odd because they could’ve limited them in special (0-2 or something), but they’re currently fighting for the same spot as Siege Giants and K’daii Destroyers and the Dreadquake - all of which I can guess aren’t cheap pointswise and you only get 375-500 points of them in a standard game.

Thinking about it, the list only has 6 different units (may as well be 5 due to the Ironsworn) that are taken in numbers… Bull centaurs on monster size bases (instead of monstrous cavalry/beasts/infantry)? Unless they are monsters and get Thunderstomp, these guys suck HARD - 30pt ogres on 40mm bases, with 3A and 3W, plus Impact Hits (which can be multiple per model) and a stomp compared to BCs’ 2A, 2W, 50mm base and (presumably) stomp for (at a guess) 35+ points…

Regarding the Lords, I’d have preferred one fighty, one casting. I think for heroes, they could’ve got away with 3 choices (the CD could be upgraded to an engineer and/or caster, but is an alright fighter before that or something…), but no massive problems compared to the rest.

I’m glad to get a list, just feel skimped out on the common sense of a lot of it. (The price of upgrades more than anything else, I think.)

EDIT: A for the Indy GT list, I think it’s heart was in the right place, but it’s head wasn’t. Lacking proper accreditation to people, not willing to update it and so on. It was usable, but I never managed to take it in.

Grimstonefire:

I suppose if there is any small comfort for me in this list from the community’s point of view its that the FW list is actually so restrictive it’s going to push people into using fanlists.

Which ultimately will be better for the community as a whole compared to us all making armies with 1 core CD unit and a practically identical elite unit.

Just spotted that the castellan is stubborn, which I guess helps the Ironsworn even if he is a bit pricey.

Edit.  From something I’ve been told it also seems like not only will it be unlikely they will release more CD models any year soon (after the ones we know about in the Tamurkhan book, but not hobgoblins), but hell will freeze over before the main studio releases a full CD army.

So basically the long term future for CD’s from GW is the Legion of Azgorh list. Period.

Shimsham:

I totally agree with you on everything, esp the indy list. I get the impression that we have seen so many lists and variations it’s not funny, and they all seem to have elements that are great in some areas, and not so great in others. I think there might just be enough out there now to truly tie it in together once and for all. And we are the ones to do it.

I’d like a lord list a bit like the dwarf one, with a fighting lord, a casting lord, a BC lord, an engineer and hobgoblin lord. And likewise with the heroes. I’d also like to see an appendix for a hobgoblin only list similar to a southlands list. Maybe a hobgoblin shaman! Magical backstabbing for sure…

As for the Bull centaurs, there was no reason to try and make them super elite and throw them on 50mm bases. They just need to be similar to other heavy cav, not something in the middle of 3 wounds monsters and 1 wound cav.

Hashut’s Blessing:

GSF: You’ve hit it on the head. We’ve got a little support and now people that wish to play it with a little more fun and variation will be put in our hands.

Shame that it sounds like nothing will come of us, but I guess I’d rather that than a repeat of a half-arsed shot in the dark.

I think a Hobgoblin lord is a little too far and appendix lists no longer appear (since 6th edition, in fact). A hobgoblin army could be quite cool, but I seriously doubt it would ever come about - less so than a Chaos Dwarf GW list.

Regarding BCs, they’re not super elite and that’s the problem. They have the downsides of being overly-elite (price and base size) [/i]and

Xander:

Great write-up Grim.

Can you explain the nature of taking Warriors of Chaos with Chaos Dwarfs (as specific as you can, as I am looking to possibibly make a hybrid army).

And also, how does the “Build an Army from all Chaos forces” work?

Are these two related?

Thanks!

Bloodpact:

Hi guys, new to here, long time fan of Chaos Dwarves. I have to say I am pretty disappointed with the new list from Forgeworld. I was hoping for something really comprehensive and inclusive, as most lists are. Unfortunately, this seems to have a few really weak choices and not much diversity.

I think the reason why Great Weapons are overpriced is that Forgeworld regularly overcharges costs for their lists, so that when people use them their opponents don’t get too mad about it. That’s the theory anyway.

My only hope is that this is just a small list, made to reflect a certain group of Chaos Dwarves, and that in the future they will be given an Army List once more by GW. I very much doubt this possibility, but it gives us something at least.

Norngahl:

First and most important: Did I got you right Bull Centaures got an ADDITIONAL wound with the greater base (so they now got 2+1 wound compared with the leaked list)? That would be great! I don´t feel they need an additional attack, as with 3+ AS and T5 AND 2 wounds they were hard to kill, but 3 wounds would be absolutly awesome! THis way they would be friggin tough to kill, which means they don´t loose effectivity that much in a (common) prolonged combat! Could anybody please confirm this?

Next:

At least, this is a special type of armylist from a special region, as already mentioned before. So they leave the option for GW to do a “real” book. If you don´t like the IG (I do), simply switch the models for old CDs… you can still play blunderbusses and GW CDs and so use your old models. I really don´t see a problem with people doing that.

A different thing are the increased point costs…

Infernal Guard was great at 11 points, it´s totally fair they now cost 12 points. Really, you get a good bang for your buck even with the increase.

GW at the point cost of 3 are still okay, as dwarves usually strike last anyway and core with S6 and 4+ AS is something many other races can´t compete with.

What totally sucks is the increase of the blunderbusses and fireglaives. See, fireglaives are only 18", so you have to move to get in range. Then, with a BS of only 3, you will be hitting on 5s usually the whole game (-1 for long range or -1 for stand and shoot), when you moved even only on a 6… I thought even 4 points per fireglaive was expensive (3 would have been fine), 4 points now after point increase would harshly had been expectable, but 5 is just over the top. For what? Swapping a 3+/6++ to +1 S and 2 shots/game hitting? Meeh. Same with blunderbusses, but they are even more screwed…

I mean I have 30 Fireglaives painted, which do little more than ordinary IG, but at 140% of the cost… Yay. Sucks.

Don´t get me wrong I don´t want to cry cause I still love the models and will field them, but that´s a part where FW has priced a unit wrong. Simply too many points. But hey, let´s take what we got, better than no official support :hat off

The Iron Daemon goes the same… 265 were fair, 285 are expensive, but 25 for hellbound… oh my…

Sure, I also miss the hellcannon and the regular CDs, but at least, it´s a special armylist, like Deathkorps of Krieg for example, which haven´t psikers as well. So I´m not that sad about the armylist (it contains all the models I like, love the IG!), but rather about some point pricings… but then again, same goes for DKoK… Nonetheless, if you love an army, small hints in the rules don´t stop you from playing. :wink:

Grimstonefire:

Ok.

Great host

You can take armies from

Warriors of Chaos

Beastmen

Daemons of chaos.

You must elect a Paragon of the Host (the single general of everything).

You must take units from at least 2 of the armies.

Only one BSB

Minimum core % (of total host) from the army the Paragon is from.

That’s basically it for army selection.  There’s loads of rules on trusted allies and bonuses etc.

With Warriors of chaos

As I understand it you cannot take CD units as part of a Great Host, only as part of a WoC army (which itself can take all the new entries from the the Tamurkhan list).  So basically no beastmen or daemons mixed with CD, excluding the toads.

Sorcerer Prophets, Daemonsmiths and Castellans come out of the respective WoC lord or hero % as long as at least one unit, warmachine or monster is taken.

One unit of Infernals as special  in the Woc list for every prophet or daemonsmith.

War machines as rare.

Hashut’s Blessing:

I think I much prefer the Great Host and additions to the Warriors of Chaos list to the Legion of Azgorh list and I’ll probably use a Warriors of Chaos Dwarfs list. Very excited about these two aspects of the book actually.

Will still likely try out Legion of Azgorh sometimes, but not my first choice for the book.

aka_mythos:

Does this completely open Warriors of Chaos and all its entries to us or are there any restrictions?

Hashut’s Blessing:

It’s the other way around - the Warriors of Chaos army is able to use us, not vice versa :wink:

aka_mythos:

…those warriors of slaanesh are looking at my CD aweful strangely now. :o

It sounds like a round about way of playing some short chaos warriors, as some of us already do.

Bloodpact:

Eh, I guess it’s a work-around, but fluff wise it doesn’t really gel with me. I mean what mark would you take for your units? Chaos Warriors kind of end up the same as IG, and Marauders are the closest to regular troops, just without the bonus to toughness the dwarves have. Perhaps use them as a quasi stand-in for Slayers? Mark of Khorne would most likely be the closest mark to use, but nothing like Hashut. At least you could use the Hellcannon again with that list.

I can only hope this is a preliminary move towards what will become an actual GW army list again. The thing about Forgeworld lists is that they are usually made when a primary in-existence list is already available (ie Red Scorpions as a chapter for Space Marines, as Space Marines already have a specific list). This, however, drops something which feels incomplete without the ability to have a regular go-to army list available. Shoe-horning them onto the WoC list feels a little weak. What’s worse is I doubt you’d be able to take the magical items from the CD list for your combined force on WoC characters, further weakening the fluffy feel. But, that’s such as it is.

Overall, I am just glad that CD’s have come back into the spotlight, if only for a brief moment, even though it’s smaller and less defined than I would like. The models are brilliant (except for the pointy hat engineer, but that can be worked around), and I hope for more to come soon.

Is there any comparable replacement for the old Earthshaker Cannon? Dreadquake perhaps?

Baggronor:

Overall, I can see some little pluses that can be exploited. I’ll be fielding a few well-armoured Castellans with re-rollable saves etc for sure. With stubborn they can hold up ranked blocks, which will go a long way to countering the massive points cost of, well, everyone else.

Stubborn Castellans also means the army BSB is always stubborn? That’s epic. Do FW even realise how nifty that is?

Fireglaives appear to be a total waste of points, which is a shame.

I was shocked that the ID, Magma Cannon and Deathshrieker are all Special. I mean - that’s mega. The Magma Cannon in particular is epically scary for large units - I’ll be running 2. And 2 Deathshriekers (my converted Organ Guns look enough like them). And quite possibly a Destroyer and ID in support.

aka_mythos:

I was shocked that the ID, Magma Cannon and Deathshrieker are all Special. I mean - that's mega. The Magma Cannon in particular is epically scary for large units - I'll be running 2. And 2 Deathshriekers (my converted Organ Guns look enough like them). And quite possibly a Destroyer and ID in support.

Baggronor
No doubt to push sales... but still thats probably the best news.

Thommy H:

Wait, did someone say the Hellcannon was out?

Nicodemus:

Wait, did someone say the Hellcannon was out?

Thommy H
Oh... say it isn't so!!

And sorry in advance if I missed this someplace - Voice of Hatred, has the wording changed at all to make it clearer if the Hatred effect is intended to work in the next round of close combat vs. only in the first rond of close combat??

~N