I�?Tve recently purchased the Nagash rule book, and whilst some of the new rules are concerning to say the least. This post is not about addressing these new rule, however is about playing them in the game.
As I was reading through the new Lore of undeath, I realised this new Lore really disadvantages undead players massively in real world context as follows:
I was at my local club and I arranged to play against a VC army, which is great as haven�?Tt had many games against them and so should be fun.
Note: At present I do not own any undead miniatures.
Anyway, for fun I decided to change my Daemonsmith Level 1 on the Lore of Metal to the Lore of undeath. I rolled for magic and got the number five spell. This is where the game went south real fast.
First turn; I decided to cast the boosted version of the spell to get 200pts of undead miniatures. Which went through on an IF, rolled and no effect to my DS yay.
Anyway, this is where things got tricky, like I said I have no undead miniatures. I look at my opponent and said�?��?��?�. �?oWhat you got spare in the box�?�.
This went down like a Sh*t Sandwich :sick, the look on my opponent face when he realised I wanted to utilise his models to beat him in a game was such a foreign concept to him and to be honest would be to me if someone said, just casted a spell do you have 10 infernal guard.
My opponent said NO you are not using any of my models and it really killed the mood for him enjoying the game and made the atmosphere uncomfortable (maybe I shouldn�?Tt have asked).
One of the other guys at the club leant me his Vampire Hero, which I took the Lore of Shadow and the fly special rule.
So my questions are:
1. Is it rude to utilise your opponents models
2. Does this new Lore of undeath disadvantage an undead player (subject to question 1)
3. Due to the ability to raise an units in the game mean, it just throws out the meta and make the game who has the most models wins?
Here’s how I see it - yes it’s rude to ask like you did.
Here’s how I feel:
I generally hate proxies in my games, because I put a lot of work into my own miniatures. So if a WoC player decides to use demegryph knight from his empire army as jugernaught, I say no to that (did that once). Because I know his strong box contains a lot of Woc miniatures - he just has to change his list or get the miniauteres done.
Now I have a completely painted 2000 point army. It’s not the best army, because I have to take stupid upgrades and include fireborn. I have bull centuears, k’daii destroyer and much other stuff not yet painted. But I would never include that against a player with a completely painted army. I’ll just have to play lesser points or an unbalanced list. Because my opponent deserves to play against good looking miniatures after his own amount of work.
Now in your case:
We can choose three well working lores of magic for our smiths. And they require no miniatures or counters. If you want to use Lore of Undead it’s your responsibility to get some miniatures done, borrow some before the game or ask your opponent “Hi. I would like to try out this lore, will you borrow me some miniatures during the game”, well before the game starts. Otherwise go with another lore.
Or before the game start you agree to go proxy crazy - perhaps in order to try out a list before getting stuff.
There can be more than one reason for the refusal from an opponent:
1. If you want something in the game - get it one way another. It’s part of the hobby.
2. I don’t want other people, that I barely know, handle my miniatures.
I would go with reason number one (and getting the needed stuff could easily be borrowed stuff). I have no issue with reason number 2, but some people do.
So I don’t see any of your three last points as an issue for an undead player. What I really see as a problem with the new lore is this:
My undead friend get’s of a spell, but hasn’t prepared some que cards with units on them. So the game comes to a massive halt, because he has to calculate points, look in his book, find the unit, put it on the table. … was a bit easier when it was just “add this amount of points to an already existing unit”.
Thanks for bringing it up, at the end of the day I think you made a bad call during that game Wolf. I’m with your opponent in this one.
IMO you should have asked before the game, that way it might not have been an issue. And on the note of using the opponents models, I only play among friends and then I wouldn’t really be a problem. But if I played against some random dude I wouldn’t want him/her to use my models either, especially if I had an undead army and the possibility to raise them my self later on in the game. And the second reason that I wouldn’t want him/her to use them because who the opponent is and how he/she might treat them.
Back in the day the Undead book had a simple rule of if you dont have the models to raise then they are just lost.
So if you want to raise up crap then bring your own toys. As for asking the other guy if you can borrow his, you best make sure hes a very good friend.
@Bloodbeard: your comments make perfect sense, I have a fully painted 7,000 point inlcuding a 90% FW model LoA army and to have other handle my pride and joy would be a real shame.
I agree with the que cards appraoch otherwise you loose the momentum of the game.
You can't just do that Wolf xD
I'm trying to imagine how I would react and the results are at least as bad as your opponent.
IF you want to use the new Lore you either:
1: Paint your own or use some of your friends
2: Ask super diplomatically before rolling for spells, I you can try the new lore with his miniatures.
MAN! That must have been soooo awkward xD
Malorndk
Yeah it was pretty funny thinking back on it now... But at the time it wasn't.
…On the other hand your opponent could have reacted in a more pleasant way. I mean, he could have simply said a polite “no” and played the game without looking offended and therefore killing the mood…
Yeah, I’d probably ask beforehand but if someone sprang it on me then light-hearted mockery for needing to borrow enemy models to play with would be the extent of my bad reaction.
It doesn’t hurt to ask, right? Undead players always carry lots of extra zombies around for their summoning spells. The only reason to say no, in my book, would be if you risk running out of summoning models for yourself, which isn’t unlikely to happen. Or if the opponent is obviously not careful with models.
It’s the Undead player’s choice, of course, yet I can’t see any trouble with lending someone a helping hand if possible. I’d do it any day, and have done vaguely similar things on tournaments, although summoning units wasn’t involved.
Personally, I wouldn’t use Lore of Undeath without bringing along lots of stuff of my own.
Also. To me, proxies are okey. After all, in my hobby group we put down so much work on our armies that they won’t be finished for years to come. It’s only the finished models that count (and tabletop standard doesn’t exist), so everything else is usually roughly basecoated yet finished conversions, WIP or pure proxies. So if you haven’t got Undead, then bring something else along and proxy it for Undead until you’ve got units of your own.
Probably should have asked about proxying before-hand. Also, spell 5 does not work in the manner you used it. The boosted version allows for a monster, single chariot, or war machine when boosted, while the regular version allows for summoning a character, though at a low points value.
Yes, unless s/he has agreed. This is common sense. My models are all converted and well-painted, there is no way I would let my local gamers get their fat grubby fingers on them, though I would lend them to a friend. I would certainly see the funny side though.
2. Not really. If you’re raising skeletons, you’re not killing his army with whatever lore you usually take.
3. More undead doesn’t always equal a better situation - new undead players learn this to their cost pretty fast, usually the first time they let Zombies into the same combat as Blood Knights I don’t see it changing the meta anymore than person A having a bigger army available in his cabinet than person B.
Probably should have asked about proxying before-hand. Also, spell 5 does not work in the manner you used it. The boosted version allows for a monster, single chariot, or war machine when boosted, while the regular version allows for summoning a character, though at a low points value.
Cheating is bad
ThorAxe
Dam it you're right, I could have had four Vargiest which would have been awesome.
Cheating is bad, but cheating yourself out of four Vargiest is worse.
Hmmmm wait I could of even had a Hierotitan. That would have been even more fun running around casting death magic and boosting my spells. Plus face stomping his troops in to the kerb.
A fun idea if you want to use the Lore of Undeath would be to covert counts-as units appropriate to your army. So greenskin Zombies, golems that count as Tomb King constructs, skeletal creatures from the Plain of Bones…
there is no way I would let my local gamers get their fat grubby fingers on them, though I would lend them to a friend. I would certainly see the funny side though.
Baggronor
Yep, this is my opinion as well.
I had a horrible experience once at a store while playing a game, some guy I had never seen before came over to the table to check out my models. He (like a lot of people) was interested to see so many vintage metal models...he especially was interested in my Hobgoblins, because he played greenskins. He wanted to buy some hobbo's off of me, I told him politely no, and he was offended, telling me that they are too expensive on Ebay, etc etc. and why would I not help him out?
It was not till the game was over that I noticed I was missing about 10 Hobbo's. B@stard took them :mad
I asked around the store if anybody knew who the guy was...and if so, to tell him I was going to kick in his teeth if I ever see him outside the store.
A few weeks later I see him again at the store, he came up to me and handed back to me my Hobbos'...all stripped of paint and with no bases! He apologized, told me he borrowed them because he wanted to cast them...he acted like it was no big deal.
So yeah...unless you're my friend, I don't let people touch my mini's.
Yep, this is my opinion as well.
I had a horrible experience once at a store while playing a game, some guy I had never seen before came over to the table to check out my models. He (like a lot of people) was interested to see so many vintage metal models...he especially was interested in my Hobgoblins, because he played greenskins. He wanted to buy some hobbo's off of me, I told him politely no, and he was offended, telling me that they are too expensive on Ebay, etc etc. and why would I not help him out?
It was not till the game was over that I noticed I was missing about 10 Hobbo's. B@stard took them :mad
I asked around the store if anybody knew who the guy was...and if so, to tell him I was going to kick in his teeth if I ever see him outside the store.
A few weeks later I see him again at the store, he came up to me and handed back to me my Hobbos'...all stripped of paint and with no bases! He apologized, told me he borrowed them because he wanted to cast them...he acted like it was no big deal.
So yeah...unless you're my friend, I don't let people touch my mini's.
there is no way I would let my local gamers get their fat grubby fingers on them, though I would lend them to a friend. I would certainly see the funny side though.
Baggronor
Yep, this is my opinion as well.
I had a horrible experience once at a store while playing a game, some guy I had never seen before came over to the table to check out my models. He (like a lot of people) was interested to see so many vintage metal models...he especially was interested in my Hobgoblins, because he played greenskins. He wanted to buy some hobbo's off of me, I told him politely no, and he was offended, telling me that they are too expensive on Ebay, etc etc. and why would I not help him out?
It was not till the game was over that I noticed I was missing about 10 Hobbo's. B@stard took them :mad
I asked around the store if anybody knew who the guy was...and if so, to tell him I was going to kick in his teeth if I ever see him outside the store.
A few weeks later I see him again at the store, he came up to me and handed back to me my Hobbos'...all stripped of paint and with no bases! He apologized, told me he borrowed them because he wanted to cast them...he acted like it was no big deal.
So yeah...unless you're my friend, I don't let people touch my mini's.
Fuggit Khan
I hope that guy got banned from the store and blackballed from all local Wargaming events - that was down right disgusting behaviour on his part :o
A few weeks later I see him again at the store, he came up to me and handed back to me my Hobbos'...all stripped of paint and with no bases! He apologized, told me he borrowed them because he wanted to cast them...he acted like it was no big deal.
So yeah...unless you're my friend, I don't let people touch my mini's.
Yep, this is my opinion as well.
I had a horrible experience once at a store while playing a game, some guy I had never seen before came over to the table to check out my models. He (like a lot of people) was interested to see so many vintage metal models...he especially was interested in my Hobgoblins, because he played greenskins. He wanted to buy some hobbo's off of me, I told him politely no, and he was offended, telling me that they are too expensive on Ebay, etc etc. and why would I not help him out?
It was not till the game was over that I noticed I was missing about 10 Hobbo's. B@stard took them :mad
I asked around the store if anybody knew who the guy was...and if so, to tell him I was going to kick in his teeth if I ever see him outside the store.
A few weeks later I see him again at the store, he came up to me and handed back to me my Hobbos'...all stripped of paint and with no bases! He apologized, told me he borrowed them because he wanted to cast them...he acted like it was no big deal.
So yeah...unless you're my friend, I don't let people touch my mini's.
Fuggit Khan
Please tell me you gave him a curb stomp!?
Holy shiet I would annihilate any fucking nerd who ever stole my models, or deliberately destroyed them or their paintjob.
you are not using any of my models and it really killed the mood for him enjoying the game and made the atmosphere uncomfortable (maybe I shouldn�?Tt have asked).
I don’t see it changing the meta anymore than person A having a bigger army available in his cabinet than person B.