[Archive] New Player 3000pts. *Updated Again (3/20/2012)*

Gmaleron:

Hello everyone. I have played Fantasy for a few years and recently I have just been able to look over the new Tamurkhan forgeworld book and after seeing the Chaos Dwarfs I have been sold on eventually getting an army of these bad boys. Now I do not know if I am allowed to run these guys in tournaments (such as Ard Boyz) or not but I hope/believe it should be or will be allowed otherwise why even bother creating it? If anyone knows please let me know because if I cant then I dont know if it will be worth getting the army or not.

Anyways this is a first attempt at putting together a list of these guys and I am willing to put the money out for the models (as thanks to my tax return and the selling of some old armies) I will have enough to buy a few things to get me started. This is a first attempt (liable to change once I start play testing some things) any thoughts, ideas or comments are welcome and thanks for reading and helping a newbie out Guys! :cheers

LORDS AND HEROES: 1030pts.

-Sorcerer-Prophet

*w/ Lvl. 4 Lore of Hashut/Fire, The Mask of the Furnace, Dawnstone, Bale Taurus

-Demonsmith

*w/ Lvl. 1, Lore of Hashut, Dispel Scroll

-Demonsmith

*w/ Lvl. 1, Lore of Hashut

-Infernal Castellan BSB

*w/ Black Hammer of Hashut, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Endurance

-x21 Infernal Guard (Demonsmith Here)

*w/ Full Command, Hailshot Blunderbusses

-x21 Infernal Guard (Demonsmith Here)

*w/ Full Command, Hailshot Blunderbusses

SPECIAL: 1150pts.

-x40 Infernal Ironsworn (BSB Here)

*w/ Full Command, Banner of Swiftness

-Magma Cannon

*w/ Hellbound

-Magma Cannon

*w/ Hellbound

TOTAL ARMY: 2997 POINTS

Tactics: Pretty basic list as I was trying to include as much of the cool stuff as possible and @ the same time trying to be competitive (was really wishing for a mortar maybe) but thats where your guys’ advice comes in. Idea behind the list was this:

-Level 4 on Bale Taurus is the scary offensive/counter attack potential of my army with my guy having a 2+ re-rollable armor save and a 4+ ward. Put Lore of Fire down as an option so he could routinely re-generate any wounds on my Bale Taurus if needed.

-Have x2 Demonsmiths that will be attached with the Blunderbuss units as well as being within 3 inches of the Magma Cannons so I can potentially give the unit some added power in CC and give both cannons a re-roll dispel scroll there for more magic defense. The BSB has the hammer of Hashut and a 2+ armor save and a 5+ ward

-x42 Infernal Guard with Blunderbusses whose job is to be the “wings” of my battle line as well as protecting the magma cannons. Plan is to reform them into a 5x4 formation after first round of combat/before combat as being S4, T4 w/ a 3+ save and a parry save in combat should mean I will be around for a while.

-The things that got me the most excited about this list, the magma cannons. I have x2 of these bad boys to put shots down range and help deal w/ any horde armies I come across. The “horde” of Ironsworn is the backbone of this force and being as tough as they are I can see this being a hard unit to crack. Gave them the Banner of Swiftness to be able to charge better if they have to.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I’m thinking only 4 deployments in a 3000 point list is going to lose against anything. Sorry.

Grimbold Blackhammer

Gmaleron:

Well it was a first attempt from a brand new player, do you have any advice besides that its not going to work? Like what should I get or what would be a good army to eventually purchase?

Thommy H:

Nothing wrong with the list, really - Ironsworn are kind of meh and I haven’t seen them in many other army lists. They don’t offer much that Infernal Guard can’t do the same for less points. You have two Magma Cannons - that’s good, since they’re borderline broken! - but you could probably do with a Destroyer or some other sort of hitty unit like Bull Centaurs of Fireborn to play hammer. The Bale Taurus can do that, but you have your general and main caster sitting on it, so you don’t want to throw him into combats.

Also Fireglaives are huuuuugely overcosted. I actually didn’t think you had enough points for Core until I went back and reminded myself how much Fireglaives cost. Stick with hand weapons - it’s the only way that Infernal Guard are worth their points - and use the points you’ve freed up from that and dropping the Ironsworn to get yourself a Destroyer. Send it after anything you think needs killing (because it will succeed, barring being brought low by Burning Bright) and sit your big units of Infernals in front of your Magma Cannon.

I mean, it’s kind of boring, but that’s pretty much how you play with Legion of Azgorh.

Gmaleron:

Thanks for the tips, I have been hearing alot of good things about the destroyer and will definitely see what I can do about getting one. Should I not take my character on a Bale Taurus then and instead sit him with a unit of the infernal gaurd? Figure I could use the Big Bull model on forgeworld as my destroyer in that case and it would free up some more points to get him. Also I took blunderbusses not firgeglaives, are they not worth taking as well? D3 x20 shots @ 12 inches seems to be pretty nasty to me.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

If you’re taking a mage, you generally want him to take an Arcane Item. So having three is overkill. Also only Sorcerer-Prophets are allowed to select the Lore of Hashut.

You need…

redirectors/chaff - AKA Hobgoblins in some form or other

more bodies - less Ironsworn, more Infernal Guard (without guns)

something to cross the board with - AKA K’daii, Centaurs, etc

Hope that helps!

Grimbold Blackhammer

Gmaleron:

Definitely seems like less Ironsworn is the way to go, will re-do the list shortly. The only reason I have the other 2 demonsmiths is so I can get the re-roll with my warmachines primarily but I see your point, I have redone my list so tell me what you guys think and see if there are any more corrections that are needed, thanks!

LORDS AND HEROES: 790pts.

-Sorcerer-Prophet
*w/ Lvl. 4, Lore of Hashut, The Mask of the Furnace, Blood of Hashut

-Demonsmith
*w/ Lvl. 1, Lore of Fire, Dispel Scroll

-Demonsmith
*w/ Lvl. 1, Lore of Metal

-Infernal Castellan BSB
*w/ Armor of Bazherak the Cruel, Biting Blade

CORE: 1220pts.

-x29 Infernal Guard (Sorcerer-Prophet Here)
*w/ Full Command, Banner of eternal Flame

-x29 Infernal Guard (BSB Here)
*w/ Full Command

-x25 Infernal Guard (Demonsmith Here)
*w/ Hailshot Blunderbusses
(or)
-x25 Infernal Guard
*w/ Fireglaives, Musician, Standard  (Banner of eternal Flame would go here)

SPECIAL: 340pts.

-Magma Cannon
*w/ Hellbound

-Magma Cannon
*w/ Hellbound

RARE: 650pts.

-K’daai Destroyer

-K’daai Destroyer

TOTAL ARMY 3000 POINTS

Tactics:

-Level 4 on foot will cast spells from the Lore of Hashut, will admit I am banking on getting the Ash Storm and Flames of Argorh spells in particular to do alot of damage to opponents. He has a 3+ armor save and a 4+ ward, along with the blood of Hashut to bring the pain on some un-suspecting character in combat.

-Same build with my Demonsmiths (know taking two may be overkill but they are there for the re-roll on my warmachines mainly) with the one dispel scroll to protect units against super spells like dwellers, pit of shades, ect. The BSB has a 2+ armor save, a 5+ ward vs magic and a S4 -2 to armor weapon.

-Not a whole lot of infantry (reminds me of when I played High Elves), am running two blocks of thirty guys (after characters join) with Hand weapon and shield to give them staying power along with a big unit of blunderbusses or fireglaives whose job is to camp in front of the cannons and with the Demonsmith protect them from getting destroyed. (Note am considering dropping these guys for fireglaives instead or even just putting their points into the thirty man units of infernal guard.)

-x2 Magma Cannons to barrage opponents with and weaken up horde lists in particular, both will get a re-roll thanks to demon smith to help make sure they stay alive and with hellbound to make them magical attacks and tougher.

-The big, scary part of this list…x2 K’daai destroyers!! These massive monsters job is to be the offensive/counter attack power of my list by either running both of them up a flank or even right next to each other against a particular nasty unit in my sights. (Note another thing I am thinking of changing by dropping one of them to add to my infantry or even drop both and spam more infantry/cannons).

MLP:

-The big change to my list this time around, x2 K'daai destroyers!! These massive monsters job is to be the offensive/counter attack power of my list by either running both of them up a flank or even right next to each other against a particular nasty unit in my sights. (*Note another thing I am thinking of changing by dropping one of them to add to my infantry or even drop both and spam more infantry/cannons*).


Gmaleron
I have a feeling you wont get many repeat games from your friends playing with two Magma Cannons and two Destroyers. Even in a 3000 point game it's overkill! I suggest just having the one Destroyer and replace him with Bull Centaurs, Fireborn or more War-machines.

A few other points to consider:

Have one of your Demonsmiths take the lore of Metal. Even the signature spell is pretty powerful against anything heavily armoured.

You will likely want at least one demonsmith to stay with the Magma cannons for rerolls, and as they get the look out sir rule when next to them they're pretty safe and that expensive bodyguard with short ranged weapons you have wont be doing a lot.

Also Blunderbusses in units of ten are pretty inefficient considering how many points you're paying per model. They're most effective in units of twenty or more with the special rules they get for 10+ and 20+ models. If you like the blunderbusses, combine the two units in to one and maybe try to bring it up to 25 strong so you have spare to keep the bonus.

Other than that you're on your way to a pretty strong army.

Gmaleron:

I can see what you mean by not making friends and will admit I took this list with Ard Boyz and the new throne of skulls campaign in mind, also the fact that I play in easily one of the most competitive stores out west was another reason I took two of these bad boys, will see what I can do with the points by dropping one, would it be better (besides being cheaper) to run fireglaives instead of blunderbusses? I also only have taken x2 Demonsmiths with the idea of having one babysit on cannon each and give both of them a re-roll if its required. :cheers

Grimbold Blackhammer:

For the cost of a ten-model blunderbuss unit, you could take over 30 Hobgoblins with bows and shields which is faster, has better shooting and superior range, and triple the number of wounds which is a decent trade off for their low leadership. I think you’ll find units of 10 dwarves underwhelming.

Grimbold Blackhammer

Gmaleron:

For the cost of a ten-model blunderbuss unit, you could take over 30 Hobgoblins with bows and shields which is faster, has better shooting and superior range, and triple the number of wounds which is a decent trade off for their low leadership.  I think you'll find units of 10 dwarves underwhelming.

Grimbold Blackhammer

Grimbold Blackhammer
I have actually considered using Hobgoblins before, I just have been trying to go for a pure Chaos Dwarf type of list but in regards to shooting units it does appear it would be much more worth it do go the hobgoblin route since the both are BS3 (not to mention money saved from ordering from FW!). Would running them in a horde with bows be worth taking?

Singleton Mosby:

Stick with hand weapons - it's the only way that Infernal Guard are worth their points -

Thommy H
You say Great weapons aren't worth the 3 points?

And if you place your magam cannon behind a unit of Infernal Guard, won't you hit your own guards? (never used warmachines before as you can see :hat off)

nilbog:

Drop the blunderbusses completely - they are very expensive and actually need to be in a big unit (25-30) to benefit from their special rules. Your daemonsmiths can sit next to the magma cannons and get a look out sir roll if targetted separately.

Use the points freed up from this to get some hobgoblin khans on wolves, they are excellent.

Great weapons aren’t worth 3 points because they don’t get to use their shields in close combat, and you get less of them because of the increased points cost. Infernal guard are anvils, not hammers (that’s what destroyers are for).

And no, template weapons, especially magma cannons, won’t hit your own troops. You just put the starting point of the template in front of the unit.

Gmaleron:

Would I be using the hobgoblin khans on wolves as redirectors or for some other purpose?

Thommy H:

Stick with hand weapons - it's the only way that Infernal Guard are worth their points -

Thommy H
You say Great weapons aren't worth the 3 points?


Singleton Mosby
On Strength 4 models? Nope. They should be 2 points maximum. Chaos Warriors don't even pay as much as Infernal Guard.

Gmaleron:

Hey guys I just realized that I have been cheating myself out of 90pts. because I pointed up the magma cannons while looking @ the dreadquake mortars… :o so it has now been fixed and the list edited to look as it should, my bad! The list has been updated again with a few tweaks in it that I feel will be much better, tell me what you guys think and as always thanks for your help.

MLP:

Hey guys I just realized that I have been cheating myself out of 90pts. because I pointed up the magma cannons while looking @ the dreadquake mortars.... :o so it has now been fixed and the list edited to look as it should, my bad! The list has been updated again with a few tweaks in it that I feel will be much better, tell me what you guys think and as always thanks for your help.

Gmaleron
I'm a bit unsure which list you're using as your first post and 7th post have different lists and both have just been updated!

On your first list your two Demonsmiths have the Lore of Hashut which is not allowed but that may be a typo as your second list has them with fire and metal.

I do like the idea of your list with 40 ironsworn! That unit would never move. However it would be weak to certain powerful spells and pretty much anything with a template. That lot of blunderbussess has huge potential for damage but your only tactic really will be to sit and wait for the enemy to come to you(as you said your demonsmtihs in the units will stay by magma cannons) with your short range. I think this list would work well against some armies but fail badly against others.

Gmaleron:

Hey guys I just realized that I have been cheating myself out of 90pts. because I pointed up the magma cannons while looking @ the dreadquake mortars.... :o so it has now been fixed and the list edited to look as it should, my bad! The list has been updated again with a few tweaks in it that I feel will be much better, tell me what you guys think and as always thanks for your help.

Gmaleron
I'm a bit unsure which list you're using as your first post and 7th post have different lists and both have just been updated!

On your first list your two Demonsmiths have the Lore of Hashut which is not allowed but that may be a typo as your second list has them with fire and metal.

I do like the idea of your list with 40 ironsworn! That unit would never move. However it would be weak to certain powerful spells and pretty much anything with a template. That lot of blunderbussess has huge potential for damage but your only tactic really will be to sit and wait for the enemy to come to you(as you said your demonsmtihs in the units will stay by magma cannons) with your short range. I think this list would work well against some armies but fail badly against others.


MLP
It is the 2nd list as the first list was a very first try, I edited the 2nd one (sorry for the confusion) and I know I am updating this rather quickly but I am going to be playtesting these bad boys today and was trying to get a list together I could run (opponent is lizardmen and he wanted to do a 2000-3000 point battle).

Reason for the K'daai is to take the fight to those armies that sit back and shoot hence why I have two of them! :), the blunderbusses are a defensive unit and will try them out to see what I can accomplish with both them and fireglaives.

MLP:

It is the 2nd list as the first list was a very first try, I edited the 2nd one (sorry for the confusion) and I know I am updating this rather quickly but I am going to be playtesting these bad boys today and was trying to get a list together I could run (opponent is lizardmen and he wanted to do a 2000-3000 point battle).

Reason for the K'daai is to take the fight to those armies that sit back and shoot hence why I have two of them! :), the blunderbusses are a defensive unit and will try them out to see what I can accomplish with both them and fireglaives.

Gmaleron
Well against Lizardmen i think you should be able to hold your own. Magic may be an uphill struggle against a Slann though but you should have more than enough damage output with the Magma Cannons and Destroyer

I would choose the Fireglaives as opposed to Blunderbusses against Lizardmen mainly because Saurus are T4 with decent armour save to S3 shots may not be so effective. But S4 Armour piercing Fireglaives would be perfect (also with the +1 Strength in combat).

If you use fireglaives i'm pretty sure they're flaming already so you wont need the banner on them.

Good luck with your battle, be sure to let me know how it goes :)

Lava Lord:

:hat off Just want to say that these list reviews are a great help to a returning CD. The discussion answers a lot of my questions also… Good luck on your battle and let us know how it went, as well as what did and did not work. Cheers :cheers