Willmark:
And how often are the current vampire, orc and goblin armies raked over the goals as it were because of the models.
Even if we go with the perception that the hats/comical nature of the figures of that era didn’t contribute to their demise for a minute then consider this. The perception is there. Perceptions are tough to break down or overcome.
Look at it another way and it’s a chicken and an egg thing. Was their failure because of their comical nature? Or because the weren’t supported? It’s entirely possible that their comical nature directly led to lack of support. Only GW knows for sure.
point out that hats weren’t the problem (when in fact they were)
You often say this, Willmark, but I see no evidence for it save your own opinion. Plenty of current Chaos Dwarf gamers like the big hats - enough for them to be in short supply on ebay anyway. I would estimate that the majority of the armies in the showcase forum are based on classic models, for example.
The Chaos Dwarfs of 4th and 5th edition didn’t fail because of one single thing, clearly - it was a combination of them always being a niche army (they were introduced through White Dwarf), being on the periphery of events in the background and having a style that didn’t tap into an obvious fantasy trope (Mesopotamian imagery doesn’t show up often in fantasy). You could possibly summarise the last as “no one liked big hats”, but it would be just that: a summary, and not at all reflective of the other factors.
I don’t mean to start an argument, but you do keep saying it, and it just strikes me as very odd. The whole “big hat” debate is completely insane to me - how can the failure of an army be laid at the feet or something so nebulous and dependent on personal aesthetics, for which there is no strong evidence?
Thommy H
Thommy I have no problems with dissenting points of view, this isn’t the USSR.
1) Of course there will be more big hat armies on eBay. By their very nature they will be the most common type of figure found out there. This is simply because this is the only form that GW made them in in such massive quantities (comparatively speaking).
I’d postulate that if Hats were a raging success, we would have seen the Hellcannon crew attired in them or something like them.
2) I’ll give that there were many factors, hats being one of them.
Nex: A niche site (which we are) or a army that hasn’t been supported in years (yeah were that too) is in no way indicative of of what the general gamer perception is on Chaos Dwarfs. By its vary nature people will be drawn to Chaos dwarfs and big hat models by two major forces 1) their rarity, 2)see number one. Are they the only factors? No but they are powerful ones indeed especially for the a fore mentioned reasons. Their very rarity attracts people who feel that they are different by simply picking something obscure, we are all probably guilty of that to some degree if we honestly appraise it.
You mention chaos dwarfs to anyone who is a non-hat fan/non chaos dwarf fan and the first look is what you would expect. Even if hats didn’t sink the chaos dwarfs they sure didn’t help. No army that GW has ever produced has had to overcome this burden or stigma, take your pick.
In the end I really don’t care if someone wants to make their army a big hat on or not, if the want to have an army solely comprised by them.
My view is much farther down the road: the survival of the Chaos Dwarfs as an army in its own right. That is a goal far bigger then any of us, whatever the personal preference. And if the what I think are ludicrous/comical '(insert your comment here) models of yesteryear need to be sacrificed in order for the Chaos Dwarfs to move forward, then I’m all for it.
We discussed this in the past and that should be our primary goal, hats or no it doesn’t enter into the equation. Viability of the army and its survival does, even as I have said before if it means going in a direction I don’t support or want. I have my order of preferences as to what I would want to see in the army. In most cases it focuses on bring the army list forward. Aesthetics for me are far down on the list, in so much as their direct relationship to selling models, thus ensuring the armies survival.
As I have also said before: I’m not going to tell someone to not make a big hat army. If that is what you like then do so (that’s anyone). But bar in mind that if they have to be sacrificed to go forward then be prepared for that too.