TFB, you are confusing Gods with Patrons. Sigmar was not a God, he was a person. He was elevated to God status by people. Sigmar has no real power as a god.
I suppose Sigmar was a bad example. I did mention other gods though.
Also (though I don't have any sources or evidence on this), in my personal view I see Hashut as more of a Chaos God than, say, Khaine, or one of the Elven Gods. I know that all Gods hold links with Chaos, but is it possible that some proper "lesser Chaos Gods" are linked more with the Big Four, and that Hashut, The Horned Rat (possibly even the Great Maw etc, but that's just random speculation by me Tongue ) are part of this group, and so more likely to potentially have Daemons, whereas the Elven Gods don't really grant this.
According to Liber Chaotica, all gods are chaos gods. I don't think there's be gods who are "more linked" to Chaos. They're all made of the same stuff. :)
Even Skaven had a Greater Daemon.
I think that it could be possible for Hashut to have some Daemons, but then perhaps he's not powerful enough.
This is what I've been trying to say. I think that gods would have to be really powerful to have daemons. Gods become really powerful by a large following. Next to the chaos gods, the Horned Rat would be very powerful with the billions of skaven worshipping him, vastly outnumbering the other races (with the exception of chaos daemons, which are infinite.). The Horned Rat would have enough power to creat a couple Vermin Lords here and there. Hashut has a very small following, so probably couldn't make daemons. This is why I oppose daemons of Hashut. Of course, if you do like the idea of daemons of hashut, don't mind me.
Ok, I can see what you mean. However, picking up on this:
The Chaos gods are so powerful because of they are represented by raw emotions that people cannot control. E.G. Greed, anger, lust, hatred.
Hashut’s Blessing
Well, what if Hashut was like the Big Four in this respect, but where Khorne was fuelled by the anger and hatred of the population, Hashut could be fuelled by ideas and development, in the same way that the Chaos Dwarfs themselves strive to develop their technology and machines.
I remember this idea coming up in a thread on Hand of Hashut, and I thought I’d throw it out here. I don’t know whether I really believe it could be possible (even theoretically/logically), but I think it’s an interesting way of looking at Hashut.
The only problem that I have with that (good) idea, is that he came to them and their knowledge whilst they were trapped in a warpstorm (maybe it was storm of chaos and I’ve changed it [I don’t mean the Storm of Chaos], so it could be an invasion instead), where they began to resent their “normal” kin due to the fact that they had no reinforcements or supplies and no-one had come to find them (actually meaning no-one DID find them). So it would prehaps be a different thing that spawned him, just in the same manner. (P.S. Good to see you Liger!)
So it would perhaps be a different thing that spawned him
Hashut's Blessing
Perhaps he was spawned from the Dwarfs themselves (as opposed to Chaos Dwarfs specifically) then made contact with the Chaos Dwarfs when he thought they were suitably corrupted to be receptive to his message?
—Hashut works just fine as a God of Chaos, and having deamons is just fine as well, as long as they never see the army list. Mention them in the fluff all you like, but keep them the 'ell out of the list.
—For a while I actually considered making a hordes of Chaos list to represent a host of Khaine. An Eldar Avatar converted a bit, with stats as a Keeper of Sectrets. Some Chosen made it represented by converted Swordmasters. Some other heavy conversion work filled out the rest with uber-elves. Never actually followed through, though.
In the fluff I’ve been writing, Hashut basically picks out the CD as being his followers by creating them in the first place and … eventually … effectively making them almost as dependant on him/it as he is on them.
I’ve decided to go with him as a god of greed, and all the things that go along with that; thirst for power, consumption of resources even at your own expense etc.
Making him a god of industry doesn’t seem right IMO.��Make their thirst for power/ greed/ desperate need for survival at any cost the reason they are so technologically advanced, not because they are doing it solely for religious reasons.
As for daemons, the fluff I’ve been working on is that there are no ‘daemons of hashut’.��The CD bind them against their will to avoid their own destruction, and ultimately the daemonic legions represent the single biggest threat in my fluff.��Of course this is the same for all races in warhammer, but in my fluff its even more acute for them.
EDIT:
Just thought, the reason for the ‘bull’ image could be because they are bullish (for those who know anything about the stock market)
I agree with what you have said Grimstonefire. It makes a lot more sense than their need for technology spawning Hashut. their need for survual is what led them to creating the things that they have. This is the sort of emotions that I couldn’t hink of to spawn him instead of industry etc.
Yes, I definitely think Hashut’s influence was gradual. The best way to lure someone to chaos, someone like a Dwarf, would be dependency. Just like Grim says.
One of the things you must remember about Chaos is that it essentially mirrors humanity (and indeed the other sentient races), but the mirror caricatures, exaggerates and distorts everything. With the four major Chaotic powers this is fairly obvious, as they encompass spheres of emotion. To my mind there's a 'lesser tier' of Chaos gods which are arguably more sophisticated: The Horned Rat and Hashut, they're gods of sociological phenomenon and concepts civilisation has constructed. Now, I'm not suggesting that these factors don't fall under the sway of the four, clearly they do but our demonic quartet are very much dominated by the core emotions that make up their beings.
But the Horned Rat and Hashut are gods of specific races you say? Not so. They are chaos gods, theireinfluence is much less specific than that of say Esmeralda. The Horned Rat is the god of politicking, lies, power and selfishness. These traits are universal, and so all races feed him in some way. The Skaven are arguably the spawn of proto-Horned Rat and thusly typify all these things.
Races that Chaos has shaped are a critique on certain aspects of humanity.
Hashut is slightly more tricky. He must have existed in some form before the fall of a certain group of dwarfs. I think that proto-Hashut would have been an amalgamation of firstly logic's uncaring and sinister edge, secondly the will to subjugate nature and further more to oppose one's will over other things. I mean that in the broadest sense possible, its easy to see it when its manifest as the enslavement and subjugation of sentient creatures, but also such benign enterprises as agriculture; livestock were once wild beast that have been dominated and moulded by human will, so that they're nothing more than tools and resources. Carving a sculpture: you're destroying say a piece of marble, and imposing your own image of what it should look like.
Now, these concepts in themselves are probably not enough to attain true godhood, hence I termed this being proto-Hashut. The Chaos Dwarves acted as a catalyst. Dwarf personality has a great exaggeration of the traits I described in the above paragraph, Proto-Hashut had a natural affinity for them. Thus; their despair, sorrow and hope provided the spark of his ascension.
I have always seens Hashut more of a evil god then a chaotic god. of course our army is named chaos warfs for a reason so its pretty clear that he is a chaos god. Bt something I liek about the Cd is that they ar more organised and helpful to each other instead of the regular backstabbing and mainles murdering that the other chaos gods have there followers to do.
I'm sure the Warrior Priests, Arch Lectors, and Felix Jaeger would be surprised to hear that one. As he certainly aids them much as a god might on many occasions.
Other Gods of actual power originate from Chaos. When the Chaos gates were ripped open, the world was infected with Chaos. This brought about all the abominations on the world, including things like Skaven and Beastman. Even Skaven had a Greater Daemon. Daemons are the manifestations of the Gods that control them. Thus Hashut could have daemons.
Remember, it didn't start out as the big four, there used to be several other chaos gods that held other positions. Such as the Renegade Chaos God Malal who was a chaos god against other chaos gods, and held the position of destroyer. Everything that could be built up, he would deconstruct. Every plan put out by Tzeentch would go awry if Malal felt the bird beak was extending his grasp too far. Every sacrifice to another god could be taken by Malal if he felt that it was his place to intercede. Then there were problems when the writers of his stories got in a tissy with GW, and we're stuck again with everyone thinking there's only four.
The Horned Rat, Hashut, Isha, all are gods of other races, and all are chaos gods, not tied to the big four. Just because it's a chaos god doesn't mean it works for chaos, with chaos, or even likes chaos. It certainly wouldn't be the first time chaos tried to destroy itself, and it wouldn't be the last.
I totally agree. The four chaos gods that many thinks of are just the most powerful and mighties gods of chaos. Itss many more lesser ones even if I would guess that both the horned rat and Hashut are the most powerful after the big four.
I thought all the gods in the warhammer world came out of the chaos gate,guess I was wrong.Also some people are going to say that sigmar was a god but diden’t come out of the chaos gate.Well sigmar was not a god he was a man.
All the gods in the Warhammer world are warp deities, formed from a ‘condensation’ of emotions in the aether into a coherant mass in the form of a warpstorm which eventually gains it’s own sentience and become a god. The Big Four are simply the largest of these warpstorms as they cover the largest and basest emotions, and are therefore the most powerful as they have the largest region from which to draw their power. The range of these storms (or pools) is so vast that many minor deities often overlap with one or more of them (as well as each other) when the draw upon simmiler emmotions and concepts, as well as having their own region of warpspace. A good example is warpstorm Khaine that would overlap with both warpstorm Khorne and warpstorm Slaanesh as well as having a bit of his own region.
Sigmar is an oddity as before his ‘ascencion’ there would have been a minor pool of the emotions and concepts he stood for which had not yet grown strong enough to gain true sentience. Upon his death and when his soul entered the warp it would have been drawn towards this region as it shared the same characteristics as him. We are then led to believe that due to his unique willpower and ‘spiritual/psychic’ (for want of a better term) might he was not only able to hold his soul together upon entry to the warp, but also to then merge with this region that stood for the same as him and bring it to sentience with his beliefs. Although he wan’t originally, Sigmar is now a god in the same way as any other; and having been empowered by his worship from the Empire, and the reverence of what he stood for by others, he is now a fairly powerful one (although nothing on the Gods of Chaos).
The impoirtant thing to remember though is that while all gods come from chaos (i.e. the aether), not all gods are Chaos ™ and associate with the Big Four, even if their region of warpspace overlaps.
Zarkov, that is spot on. That is exactly how it has been made out to be in all the Chaos fluff I have read.
I would say that Sigmar is powerful now due to the worship of the Empire, with his soul not having that much to do with it. He is fed by the belief of his followers, in the same way as all the other gods.
You’re forgetting the Old Ones. I suppose you could argue they are just Chaos deities from another section of the universe… It is still a possibility that not all Warhammer deities are Chaos god, Sotek being the only exception we are certain of so far. Along that same note, the Great Maw of the Ogres supposedly fell to earth with a comet (two tailed, clearly). Whether it was a god before it came into contact with the winds of chaos or not remains to be seen though.
Also, I do believe I remember reading somewhere on the GW site that the Khemri’s deities pre-Nagash were not from the Chaos. Anyone remember any such thing?
Sidebar: Finally! I have been trying to post this for two days but it hasn’t worked!
The Old Ones were aliens, rather than gods. They used magic, but built devices to hold back Chaos itself.
The Great Maw is something I’m not too sure about. It seems likely though that the Ogres were suitably impressed by the impact of the meteorite that it eventually formed a presence in the Aether.
