Oh ok. Well basically the club is renting an apartment 24x7 so we put our miniatures there and play whenever we want to. Everyone has a key for access and there
s even a fridge with beer! Its the perfect arrangement for Warhammer, you can leave home without anything and have everything ready on movement trays at the club. That, and 24x7 access coupled with 3 gaming tables just makes it so easy I can
t join Crusade this year either. Ive attended it for the last two years, placing 4th and 9th and it
s my favourite tournament. Its a pity, but there are many more tournaments coming later this year
Thanks for the kind words on the characters! Can
t wait to start painting, I know exactly what feel Im looking for. Watch this space
// On Enemy Gunlines //
An essential problem for any gunline is how do you handle other, potentially stronger, gunlines? This is a question that is definitely worth asking if you want to avoid helpless matchups. With M3 armies in particular, this is a huge concern: if you lose the shooting war early on, chances are you will not have the time to push and reach anything significant before it
s too late. Thus, lets take a look at the context we
re dealing with:<br><br>This army is designed to play in an ETC-esque environment. This means that the likely shooty armies Ill be up against that can present a shooting presence significant enough to outshoot me are mainly the following: Ogre Kingdoms, Dwarfs, The Empire, Daemons of Chaos. Of course, High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves and Lizardmen can also bring impressive amounts of shooting on the table, but these aren
t gunlines per se and thus fall outside the scope of this analysis. Lets take a look at the others, then:
Ogres can either bring 1 Ironblaster or ditch their Lords. The first case is by far the most common, and this is not a real threat: a single Ironblaster is not a match for Chaos Dwarfs - the Ogre army has more drops (thus a good chance of going first), Hellcannon + Deathshrieker are deadly against it and even the Iron Daemon is strong here. Overall, the Lore of Hashut and Magma Cannon are very strong against Ogres, so for them to prioritize winning the ranged war could cost them dearly. If you manage to land Ashstorm + Flames of Azgorh (unlikely, but not impossible with the Chalice) on a Gutstar, you will average 50 wounds. The shooty list with 2x Ironblasters, Leadbelchers and Maneaters are more of a problem, but this army is still weak against Magma + Hashut, furthermore with only LD9 available the Hellcannon also becomes a much bigger threat and without Mournfang the bunker is solid. Overall then, I don
t consider Ogres a serious threat with regards to outshooting me. <br><br><strong>Dwarfs</strong><br><br>Most Dwarf armies with the new book will skip the Grudge Thrower entirely in favour of the more destructive Organ Gun and Flame Cannon. Thus, they usually bring 1-2 cannons to the table and this is everything they have with regards to a ranged war. Furthermore, as Dwarfs have no cavalry, the Iron Daemon is super-strong here. Their cannons are only 3W and thus Deathshrieker + Hellcannon should have an advantage here: if they do win the ranged war they are still very weak to Magma Cannon + Iron Daemon, so I actually think its a favourable matchup. Last but not least, most Dwarf armies have more drops than my Chaos Dwarfs.
The Empire army with Lore of Light, 2 Cannons and the Steam Tank is arguably the worst matchup for this list: the Hellcannon and Deathshrieker HAVE to win the ranged war and the list overall struggles with massive amounts of 1+ units as neither the Magma Cannon, Deathshrieker or Hellcannon are optimized to fight these kinds of enemies. The good thing here is that Iron Daemon is a fairly good choice against a Steam Tank and MCs in general, and they have a hard time breaking the bunker. I do believe this is the worst matchup from an out-gunned perspective, but it
s far from hopeless. Again, fewer drops help out here.<br><br><strong>Daemons of Chaos</strong><br><br>With 0-1 Skullcannons one wouldnt think that Daemons provide a significant ranged threat. However, they will every now and then show up with Lores that really scare us and potentially on monsters that are highly flexible, i.e. Metal, Shadow, Death. However, the popularity of Nurgle works in our favour here: everything flaming is super-effective. Also, the Hellcannon should win against a Skullcannon alone, with Deathshrieker backup it should be easy. Barring very bad luck, I think this is a favourable matchup.
Overall then we
re left with a single serious threat. As far as hard counters go, this is far from the worst. Thus, I feel comfortable playing Chaos Dwarfs as a true gunline army without having game-over matchups before weve begun.
Finally got some time to read through all this stuff, been looking at it for days.
Thanks for this, this is a great start to a blog. Kind of anticipated it, after quickly scrolling through your HEs progress.
I like the way you build up the blog, with the table of contents etc. Very professional. I keep numerous threads going to achive that same purpose. Having the links in my signiature.
Your blog/thread really should be moved to the Army Blog section of the forum.
That was a great battle report, it’s nice to see some more detailed ones here. There is a lot to learn from those, and yours are really “ruleish” written, it’s good. I tend to get a more “storyish” style when doing reports. What program are you using for the field down view? It’s great! and would work wonders used along side pictures.
On the tactics: Good strategical thoughts. I really like our destroyer, and it hasn’t disappointed me yet. Those nasty heroes with 2++ against flames are annoying. But ny destroyer has been able to squash them with some dedicated attacks anyways. And with some support for getting kills, ranks and banners, that unstable isn’t that bad. Also a khan or BCs, can help contain his frenzy.
The scariest thing I’ve met with the destroyer are the khemries -d3 tougness spell. That thing will make them go puff in seconds!
The black hammer / lore of hashut combo is super fun when it works. And great against multible wound armies. The black hammer wielder can fast kill off units of ogres og trolls. Lore of Hashut is a great lore, very versalite. Ash Storm can mess up any opponents day (and this is the one to get always). The only spells I don’t like are the 8’’ one and the hell hammer.
Looking forward to following this blog and seeing some more plastic on it. The characters you’ve made are cool. Lot of potential in those new dwarf miniatures.
Take some slaves for the super amount of work you’ve put into this!
Nice… I’m really enjoying reading your analyses.
I play in completely uncomped environment, so some of the gunlines get a bit scarier. Still, your arguments are convincing enough for me to dust off my hellcannon and try some artillery-spam again. Still, the more aggressive build is awfully fun - K’daai and BCs charging up a flank together is a potent force.
Just wondering, how do you average 50 wounds on a gutstar with Flames of Azgorh? The template only hits 9 ogres, so does max 9 wounds before multiplying and then doubling for flammable. But each of those 9 wounds can’t be multiplied past 3 (i.e. the number of wounds on an ogre’s profile), so you can do 27 wounds max. Unless you are talking about the boosted version, which I have never tried seeing as it requires 6-dice, and losing your SP to the void (and half your IG with him) isn’t worth it.
@Bloodbeard - Thanks I use Battle Chronicler for battle reports (when I
m not simply posting pictures from my phone). I tend to write them with a focus on the rules as this is what helps me analyze it. I couldve easily taken the story-approach as well, as most of the games I play the narrative presents itself simultaneously.
It is true that the Destroyer can usually get a wound through per combat phase against 2++ firewarded stuff, but as I pointed out this is only of its weaknesses. Also as you point out, Withering and the TK Toughness spell are hard counters.
@Billy Ocean - I hear you. If that worries you, try 2x Hellcannon, 2x Deathshrieker and 2x Death Magic, coupled with scroll and Chalice. That combo should be second to none and you can pretty much add what you please and contend with anyone for ranged superiority.
As for the multi-wound thing you are correct. I just did the math but as you make clear it`s of course capped by the wounds they have
As for the BCs, I have really been considering them lately. 2+ T5 M7 should be quite capable of assisting the Iron Daemon…
List proposal (to better support the Iron Daemon and provide som flexibility to the list): Characters as is, Rare as is:
26 Infernal Guard, Full Command, Great Weapons: 422
10 Infernal Guard, Fireglaives, Musician: 180
Core total: 602
Iron Daemon, Hellbound = 310
Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher = 100
Magma Cannon = 145
3 Bull Centaurs, Shields, Spears, Musician = 155
Special total: 710
Core + special total previously: 1313
Core + special total with this draft: 1312
I love the Bull Centaur models but in combat they consistently underwhelm me. Definitely try them but keep in mind - their damage output comparable to five Hobgoblin Wolf Riders on the charge (and that’s pitiful). Don’t expect much.
Unfortunately, bull centaurs don’t get +1S on the charge with their spears because they are not mounted models. They get the crappy fight in extra rank rule, so unless you were gonna run those guys 1-wide and 3-deep, the spears are useless. I like following two builds for bullcentaurs, and had some success with both:
1. The Mobile Tarpit. 3 with musician, hw+sh. T5, 2+ and parry is rock hard, and will bog down a much bigger, more expensive infantry unit for the whole game. Spearelves being the perfect target of course. You have a pretty pathetic damage output, but the stomps should help you at least draw combat each round. Best thing about it is its mobility compared to other tarpits and cheap at 140 points.
2. The Knight-buster. 3 with great weapons, full command, and a 1+ rerollable Taur’ruk (blackshard, dragonhelm, dawnstone) with great weapon. The unit doesn’t have many attacks, but they are all at S6 and S7 for the Taur’ruk. Doesn’t have the blending power to go through big infantry units (the way the destroyer can) but pick the right targets and they are golden. Knights, monstrous cav are perfect.
Oh, I don
t expect the Bull Centaurs to do much ;) They are capable of handling scouts, fast cav and other threats/annoyances to my flanks and Iron Daemon. That is their intended role and as such I shouldnt need much more than what they provide.
I played a game as High Elves vs Lizardmen today (link here: Path To Glory - ETC All Games Up! - Page 11 - Ulthuan). i think Lizards are one of the worst matchups for CD, there is so much chaff and poison that
s really hard to get at and neither our WMs nor magic is especially well suited to taking them out.<br><br>EDIT: didnt see Billy Ocean
s reply. Oh thats a bummer! I`ll definitely drop the Spears then
Been reading through your HE thread a bit. You have a talent for dissecting strategy and building lists with great synergy. Plus the combined list/batrep thread is a really nice way to tie it all together.
I hope you don’t mind if I ‘borrow’ the idea to create a thread documenting my own army’s evolution? Although I’ll keep the painting/hobby side as its own separate thread.
The idea isn
t mine at all ;) I helped popularize it on Ulthuan with a thread based on the former High Elf army book (link here: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35318). Anyways, Id love for more people to start doing army development threads here. I think they are a great way to present your army, discuss Warhammer in the right context, analyze interesting games and situations and learn to become a better player. For me, a lot of the value from creating a thread like this is the “aha” moments you get when you
re writing up a report and the ability to backtrack your decisions and re-read entries later on. <br><br>Now that I dug up the old thread, I also remember that I have a couple of battle reports against Chaos Dwarfs. While I was using the old High Elf book, you might still find them interesting to read as I believe they show quite a bit of the strengths and weaknesses of CD:<br><br>http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35318&p=816251#p816251 <- one year old report. Its a little short but I hope the pictures help explain what happened and why it happened. The lack of Magma for the Lions and Hellcannon/second Deathshrieker at the very least for the Dragon made this is a fairly easy matchup. I do believe his Deathshrieker was neutralized on T1 with Archers due to poor deployment as well, which pretty much only left a single threat on the table: the Taurus-mounted Lord. A mistake on my opponent
s side made it an easy win. <br>http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35318&p=758867#p758867 <- two year old report. Very skilled opponent. I made a big mistake as my Dragon didnt engage the K
daii (in the old book the mount also got 2++ vs fire). I shouldve won this easily.
Inspired by both you and Seredain, I’ve been seriously toying with this exact idea for a while now. But I honestly don’t feel like I’ve got a strong enough grasp on how to play Chaos Dwarfs yet. Dark Elves - I could write a book of strategy on. But I’m still figuring out the intricacies of not how to win but how to win consistently with a low-movement army. That being said, the reason why I am now a good Dark Elf General is actually because I was writing down my bat reps. Hmmm…
Almost perfect Deathshrieker conversion. The only bit I’m unsure about are the decorative gryphons and the Sigmarite symbols on the rockets.
If you too are, then the symbols could always be scraped away. If you’re unsure about converting the gryphons into daemons, lammasus or whatever, how about a nice dark paintjob to make 'em less Imperial?
As on the Hellcannon, nice work! :cheers
Thanks Admiral! I
ll consider them. The gryphons at the bottom will likely remain, but I might end up cutting the symbols off of the rockets. I think the paint can largely determine the overall look and feel here :)<br><br>Since Bull Centaurs do not receive +1S from Spears on the charge, Ive decided to try them out with GW and only 3+ instead. I
m very anxious to see how theyll do: off the top of my head they should still be a very capable unit of dealing with the Iron Daemon
s main enemies regardless. <br><br>For the record, here is the complete draft I intend to try out:<br><br>Hashut Sorcerer-Prophet: Level 4, Chalice of Blood and Darkness, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, Blood of Hashut = 420 <br>Dark Castellan: BSB, Dragonhelm, Black Hammer of Hashut, Shield, Talisman of Endurance = 207 <br>Metal Daemonsmith Sorcerer: Spellshield, Luckstone, Scroll of Shielding = 135 <br>Hobgoblin Khan: Giant Wolf, Light Armour, Dragonbane Gem = 59 <br>Hobgoblin Khan: Giant Wolf, Light Armour = 54 <br><strong>Characters = 875</strong><br><br>Core: <br>26 Infernal Guard, Full Command, Great Weapons: 422 <br>10 Infernal Guard, Fireglaives, Musician: 180 <br><strong>Core total: 602</strong><br><br>Special: <br>Iron Daemon, Hellbound = 310 <br>Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher = 100 <br>Magma Cannon = 145 <br>3 Bull Centaurs, Great Weapons, Musician = 155 <br><strong>Special total: 710</strong><br><br>Rare: <br>Hellcannon = 210 <br><strong>Rare total: 210<br><br>Army total: 2397</strong><br><br>The overall "problem" in the army is the 150-odd points (ish) that end up going into Bull Centaurs. With ETC restrictions, I cant have another war machine (nor would I know whether to include a secondary Magma Cannon or Deathshrieker) so I
m kind of left with characters, core, Bull Centaurs or Kdaii Fireborn. An alternative of course is to drop the Chalice (which allows both the Lore of Death and a Dispel Scroll AND another war machine), but I think this item is so good that I`m better off with it.
If I were to drop the chalice (thus opening up another slot for a WM), how would you alter the army?
That’s a very clever death shrieker conversion. It evil and spiky enough. This is great work. Because homebuild warmachines often lack that warhammerish evil feel. Well done indeed.
Great use of the hellblaster barrels.
You really should remove the symbols from the rockets. The gryphon will work Okay wirh paint - but the other are very empire.
Only other addition could be some small spikes at the end of the rocket. Just for the skullfactor.
Consider adding some gnobgoblins to the crew. To make warmachines fell connected (thinking of your hellcannob).
Good idea Bloodbeard, I hadn
t considered more goblins but will definitely do so. I will add at least one CD to the Hellcannon as well and Im hoping to convert the Empire crewmen to slaves. I also have an idea for a pit they can be in which I think will work nicely
I`ll see what I can do about the symbols on the rockets!
Back to the modelling side of things, I
ve decided to try and build the Iron Daemon on my own. The ForgeWorld model looks very nice, but I love converting and I think I found a pretty cool concept. Basically I want to keep the same feel as the FW model: open platform at the back and big wheels in front. Ive decided to base the conversion on a mix of the Hellcannon and the CSM Forgefiend. Below are some pictures to explain my train of thought:
The Hellcannon will supply the main body for the Iron Daemon. I am not familiar with the kit but probably will be in short time. Explanation:
1. The barrel needs to get lowered so it
s flat, relative to the ground. <br>2. I need another set of the big wheels to go in front of the model. <br>3. The daemonic mouth around the barrel needs to disappear (for those of you who know the kit: are these glued on or part of the barrel?). <br>4. The skeletons etc at the back have to be removed to make way for the engine, which brings us to the next picture:<br><br><a href="http://s96.photobucket.com/user/Olannon/media/engine_zps25959da6.png.html"><img src="http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l200/Olannon/engine_zps25959da6.png"></a><br><br>1. The main body of the Forgefiend will do nicely as the engine, I think. <br>2. Exhaust ports look very cool and will fit straight in with my concept. <br>3. I guess these are meant to be at the front of the gatling guns and I intend to use them as such as well. <br><br><a href="http://s96.photobucket.com/user/Olannon/media/guns_zps962d3589.png.html"><img src="http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l200/Olannon/guns_zps962d3589.png"></a><br><br>1. Main guns, mounted on either side of the barrel/boiler, same as the FW ones. <br>2. Can possibly be used with the engine and/or to cover poorly converted gaps. The chaos star is really cool. <br>3. Possibly something I can use to further enhance the mechanic feel of the thing.<br><br><a href="http://s96.photobucket.com/user/Olannon/media/face_zpsba8c00d8.png.html"><img src="http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l200/Olannon/face_zpsba8c00d8.png"></a><br><br>The CSM Rhino kit has a couple of daemonic faces, such as the one I used in my Hellcannon conversion. Sealing the barrel shut to better look like a boiler, I believe this on the front of the Iron Daemon will be the icing on the cake.<br><br>Of course theres a lot left, like platform, crew, spikes etc, but I
m having quite a few bits now so I think that will be fine ;) <br><br>Lastly, this idea was something I was pondering yesterday, and ultimately Bloodbeards reference to this thread by Nicodemus ensured me that this can be done: Awesome Iron Daemon Conversion
Wow! That’s going to be quite the conversion. The two ‘mouth’ and ‘face’ pieces at the end of the barrel are glued on so removing them isn’t an issue. But when you mention the skeletons at the back, if you’re referring to the big vents - that will be VERY difficult to remove. Or if you’re just talking about the piles of skulls, those are easy.
I’m curious to see how your vision turns out. Keep us posted!!
It’s actuallly a clever idea to use the Hellcannon as a basis for the choochoo train. Well chosen CSM kit to couple it with.
It would be cool if you managed to scratchbuild a small coalbin at the rear end of the Iron Daemon.