[Archive] On Bull Centaurs

Archive [Archive] Rules Development
1

Revlid:

I’m currently having a bit of a crisis of faith in my current vision of Bull Centaurs. Up until recently they’d been Dragon Ogre-sized creatures, the Bull Half equivalent to a Lesser Taurus and the Chaos Dwarf half swollen to Ogre-sized levels.

But obviously this doesn’t jibe nearly as well with old models and art, as well as a series of cool art pieces I’ve seen recently, as well as clashing with the role of another monster unit in the army, the Bull/Iron Golems.

So here are the two sets of rules: the first, the current set, dealing with ‘monstrous’ Bull Centaurs, and the second dealing with cavalry-sized (but still bulky, hence the two wounds) Bull Centaurs. Both take up a single Rare choice per unit. Thoughts?

[/i]

               M WS BS S T W I A LdBull Centaur   8  5  3 5 4 4 3 3  9Hand of Hashut 8  5  3 5 4 4 3 4  9

Unit Size: 1+
Equipment: Hand weapon, Black Plate
Options:
- Any unit may have Additional Handweapons (+4 pts per model) or Great Weapons (+6 pts per model).
- One Bull Centaur may be upgraded to a Musician for +10 pts.
- One Bull Centaur may be upgraded to a Standard Bearer for +20 pts.
- One Bull Centaur may be upgraded to a Hand Of Hashut for +20 pts.
- A Standard Bearer may carry a Magic Standard worth up to 50 pts.
Special Rules: [/i][/i]
                 M WS BS S T W I  A   LdBull Centaur     8  5  3 4 4 2 3 2(3)  9Hand of Hashut   8  5  3 4 4 2 3 3(4)  9

Unit Size: 4+
Equipment: Two Hand Weapons, Black Plate
Options:
- Any unit may swap their additional hand weapon for great weapons for +2pts per model.
- One Bull Centaur may be upgraded to a Musician for +10 pts.
- One Bull Centaur may be upgraded to a Standard Bearer for +20 pts.
- One Bull Centaur may be upgraded to a Hand Of Hashut for +20 pts.
- A Standard Bearer may carry a Magic Standard worth up to 50 pts.
Special Rules:

2

Thommy H:

Option 2 is almost exactly how I’d do Bull Centaurs too, so I vote for that.

3

Baggronor:

The second one.

This message was automatically appended because it was too short.

4

cornixt:

Is there actually a unit of infantry/cavalry that has a default of two wounds (ie not characters)? Even Chaos Knights have only one wound.

5

Thommy H:

Flesh Hounds and plenty of others, I’d imagine. They’re not “infantry/cavalry” - they’re monsters, just not quite as big monsters as Option 1.

6

Revlid:

Actually, Flesh Hounds and Heroes are the only units I can think of with two wounds. Which is odd.

EDIT: Not including Bloodcrushers and the like, which are cavalry.

7

cornixt:

So what size bases are the second option meant to be on? If cavalry-sized then my point stands, but then they’d be far too cheap. Even on 40mm bases they seem to be better than Ogres for the same cost (assuming Trample gives +1 attack, it’s hard to say but that is a common rule for new BC rules)

8

Thommy H:

Flesh Hounds are on cavalry bases.

EDIT: They should be a bit more expensive though. 55 points, at a rough estimate.

9

Revlid:

Flesh Hounds are on cavalry bases.

EDIT: They should be a bit more expensive though. 55 points, at a rough estimate.

Thommy H
Really? At the moment they're the same cost as Chaos Knights, who (although they lack a wound) have a much better armour save, better strength, as many attacks, and are Special.

They're more expensive than Flesh Hounds... Let's do a comparison, they seem closest.

So in terms of advantages, Flesh Hounds have a 5+ Ward Save, +1S, Unbreakable, +1I, and Magic Resistance (3), and are a Special Choice.

Bull Centaurs, by contrast have +1A, and the option for Great Weapons. And they're Rare, so they have to compete with Hellcannons, Earthshakers, and Kolossi.

55? Seriously? I just don't think they're tough enough to be worth that much, even with the two wounds. I mean, consider, say 20 Handgunners (or two units of 10, whatever) firing at Bull Centaurs, Flesh Hounds, and Chaos Knights.
20 Shots
10 Hits
5 Wounds
Chaos Knights: 3+ Save = 2 Wounds, 80 Points
Flesh Hounds: 5+ Save = 3 Wounds, 53 Points
Bull Centaurs: 6+ Save = 5 Wounds, 100/138 Points

And attacking those same handgunners, for the sake of the argument, Bull Centaurs don't hit that much harder than Chaos Knights or Flesh Hounds, if at all.
5 Chaos Knights = 10 Attacks, 7 Hits, 6 Wounds + 5A, 3H, 2W = 8 Wounds Total
6 Flesh Wounds = 12 Attacks, 8 Hits, 7 Wounds Total
5 Bull Centaurs = 20 Attacks, 14 Hits, 9 Wounds Total
5 Bull Centaurs = 10 Attacks, 7 Hits, 6 Wounds + 5 Attacks, 3H, 2W = 8 Wounds Total
10

Thommy H:

Maybe 50 then.

Take a look at Avian’s creature creation rules. I used the “small monster” as a starting point, and this is how I calculate the cost:

- Move 8 (+15)

- WS 5 (+6)

- BS (irrelevant - no missile weapons)

- Strength 4 (0)

- Toughness 4 (0)

- Wounds 2 (+5)

- Initiative 4 (+2)

- Attacks 3 (0)

- Leadership 9 (+13)

- Cause Fear (+10)

- 4+ Armour save (+8 or so)

- Additional hand weapons (+5 or so)

- I didn’t charge for flaming attacks because the trample balances it out.

Total: 64 points

But, Ld 9 is standard for Chaos Dwarfs, so it shouldn’t be worth as much as indicated there. So 50 points is about the ballpark we’re talking.

11

Revlid:

I’ve always seen Avian’s rules as flawed for designing whole units - they work well for cobbling together a critter or whatever for a quick scenario, but they fail to take into account the context of the army list or the use of the unit in question - the reason why Games Workshop doesn’t use a points-build system to determine costs.

EDIT: Added Trample rules to the first post.

12

Thommy H:

Depends on the rules - with the unit design rules, they do take into account which army they belong to (some races can’t get certain weapons, or pay extra for them, for example). The creature rules are, by necessity, the weakest because, as you say, they rely too much on a point build system. Nonetheless, it’s a useful guide: 2 wound creatures with 3 attacks and a 4+ armour save should be pretty expensive.

Your points value of 40 points is roughly double what Bull Centaurs are now, right? Well, they have an extra wound, so that makes sense: they’re twice as survivable. But they also cause fear, have higher WS and a few other buffs as well, so they should be more than double the price. 50 points feels about right to me.

13

Revlid:

Your points value of 40 points is roughly double what Bull Centaurs are now, right? Well, they have an extra wound, so that makes sense: they're twice as survivable. But they also cause fear, have higher WS and a few other buffs as well, so they should be more than double the price. 50 points feels about right to me.


Thommy H
Two points of dissention here:
1) Current Bull Centaurs are a bit rubbish for their points.
2) Obviously a wound alone isn't worth 20 points, or the original Bull Centaurs would be more than 20 points, if you follow my reasoning.
14

Thommy H:

No, it’s not “20 points per wound”, or all models would cost at least 20 points! Obviously this is a difference of opinion though - I maintain that 50 points is “about right” for two wound, WS 5 models with 3 attacks. They’re at least as good as Chaos Knights in all respects except armour save and Strength anyway, and they cost 40 points.

15

Revlid:

They're at least as good as Chaos Knights in all respects except armour save and Strength anyway, and they cost 40 points.

Thommy H
But that's the thing. If we assume that the extra Stength makes up for the extra Attack, then the main difference between the two is the Armour Save and the Wound - I'd argue that a 1+ Armour Save and 1 Wound is more survivable than a 4+ Armour Save with 2 Wounds, most of the time.

You need 36 WS3 S3 Attacks to take down a Chaos Knight, and only 24 to take down a Centaur. At S4 you only need 16 Attacks, and the Chaos Knight will still take 36!

2 Wounds was a necessary addition to stop them from becoming the pincushions they are right now, but it only makes up for the lack of a "heavy" armour save.
16

Thommy H:

An extra Attack is worth more than extra Strength for one thing (compare the Sword of Battle with the Sword of Might), even more so with troops (as opposed to characters).

I’m not going to dispute your maths but in general additional wounds, particularly for units, are priced higher than armour save. Armour saves can always fail, after all, but an additonal wound will always keep the model alive that bit longer. Just saying “on average, this is how they’ll do” doesn’t really give you the full picture - you could roll all 1s for those Chaos Knights when saving.

17

Baggronor:

I'm not going to dispute your maths but in general additional wounds, particularly for units, are priced higher than armour save.
Yep, the ability to take an extra hit is just better than extra armour.
1) Current Bull Centaurs are a bit rubbish for their points.
I think 21pts for that sort of hitting power at a 16" charge is not bad actually :)
take into account the context of the army list or the use of the unit in question
This is the important point. They are clearly somewhere in the region of 40-50 points, but it depends what they compete with and what holes in the list they fill, as well as who can join them, what other cavalry options there are, etc.
18

Revlid:

Yep, the ability to take an extra hit is just better than extra armour.

Baggronor
No, on average it really isn't.
Number of Attacks Needed to Kill a Single Model
WS3 Attack:   S3  S4  S5  S6
Bull Centaur: 24  12   8   5
Chaos Knight: 36  24  12   8
Even with an additional wound, Bull Centaur simply aren't as tough as Chaos Knights (or Flesh Hounds, given that they have a Ward Save and MR rather than Armour).
19

Thommy H:

Revlid, you can’t use mathhammer like this. An additional wound is better because it always works. With armour save, no matter how good it is, you can always fail by rolling a 1 and that’s your model dead. Just because, statistically, most dice will roll 3 or 4 doesn’t mean they’ll do so reliably - that’s the point of dice!

It’s also worth pointing out that Bull Centaurs are faster than Chaos Knights, so more likely to get the charge, which means less enemies hitting back.

20

Revlid:


Revlid, you can't use mathhammer like this. An additional wound is better because it always works. With armour save, no matter how good it is, you can always fail by rolling a 1 and that's your model dead. Just because, statistically, most dice will roll 3 or 4 doesn't mean they'll do so reliably - that's the point of dice!

Thommy H
... True. :mad
I acknowledge that my point is less strong than I made it out to be, but there is still some validity - namely that a T4 4+ Save isn't overly durable compared to other Heavy Cavalry, 2W or not.

I wouldn't be opposed to 45 Points, ultimately. Would that be more appropriate?