[Archive] Palanquins

Sobek:

What does everything think of the idea of having Palanquins as an option for Sorceror Lords? These are the creme of the crop, and as such, many are probably already pretty far into the fossilization process. Being carried into battle on a Palanquin by a retinue of slaves is very flavorful. Just think of Lord Kroak and the mummified Slaan. A similar idea, however, the option should be there to take Sorceror Lords on foot.

The question is, what bonus should the Palanquin give the Lord in exchange for extra points and becoming a large target? Extra Dispel Dice ala the Lammasu to not only represent their greater magical apptitude but also their stony skin (think Stone Trolls, regular dwarfs, etc…)

Thoughts?

Grimstonefire:

Here are the rules I’ve worked on:

Palanquin:��100 points

Many sorcerers choose to ride to war upon a Palanquin.��These ancient battle platforms are carved with patterns and runic symbols so intricate they are truly masterful works of art.�� Carried by his Acolytes, a Sorcerer can be freed from his limited mobility and bring more destructive magical force down upon his enemies.��

A High Sorcerer on Palanquin with 4 Acolytes fights as a single model with Unit Strength 5 (even in challenges).��They are mounted on a 40mm square base, counting as 4 models in a unit.��When in a unit the Palanquin is not considered larger than the other unit members.

The Acolytes provide 1 Strength 4, WS 4, Initiative 3 close combat attacks each.��These attacks do not benefit from any weapon (magic or not) the sorcerer has.��They carry the Palanquin at M3.��The Palanquin provides +1 power dice to the rider, adds +2 to the Sorcerer’s Armour Save (to a maximum of 1+), and Magic Resistance (1) to the Sorcerer and Acolytes.

Note that I’ve not made the Palanquin a large target.

Shindeshai:

I like it :slight_smile: might want to up the point cost though, it looks a little too low compared to other similar units

Revlid:

My version, although similar, is more just a bigger version of Shieldbearers.

Palanquin - 40 Point Mount Choice for Sorcerers and High Sorcerers

A Sorcerer with a Palanquin consists of a Sorcerer on a platform carried by four Chaos Dwarf Bearers. A Sorcerer with a Palanquin has a Movement value of 3. A Sorcerer and his Bearers fight as a single model with a Unit Strength of 4 (even in challenges). They are mounted on a 40mm wide by 40mm deep base. The Palanquin adds 1 to the Armour Save of the Sorcerer mounted on the Palanquin in the same way as any other mount. The Bearers give the General two extra WS5 Strength 4 Initiative 3 close combat attacks, but these attacks do not benefit from any weapon carried by the General.

If a Sorcerer with a Palanquin fights with a unit, he counts as two normal models (in each rank) for the purposes of working out if there is a complete rank of five models. Note that when in a unit, a Sorcerer and his Bearers may still use the ‘Look out, Sir!’ rule.

Granodor:

I would say the sorcerer can overview the battlefield and attack any unit he likes, even those, hidden behind other units… no additional dice, no additional magic… ofcourse the additional melee-damage and the movement stays :slight_smile:

OR this could be the only mount, a stoned mage can buy:

the stoned mage cant move and the only chance to take him in an army is a palaquin… the mage should be allways lvl 4 and cheaper then the normal mage, but the palaquin-costs should be balanced :~

:hat off

melic67:

I like Grimstonefire’s rules the most. As a matter of fact i like them.:cheers

Tallhat:

I also like Grimestonefires a lot, though Im not sure he should get any kind of save from it. Wizards should as a general rule not be able to get an armour save unless mounted on a steed or through some special (magic) armour. Another thing is that I dont think it should be accolytes that carry him. It should much rather be his most trusted warriors (maybe even some Immortals) The reason for this is that it would seem a bit out of the place for Sorceror Acolytes to have such (realtively) good stats as WS 4 S4 and I 3 when considering they are probably quite young since they are only acolytes. Those stats would fit better with a personal retinue of Immortals or somesuch.

- Tallhat

wallacer:

If it’s going to be on a 40x40 base then the two guys at the rear shouldn’t be able to fight, since they are effectively in the second rank.

Personally, I think being elevated above the unit for the whole world to see seems kind of risky for a Chaos Dwarf Sorceror, but it would certainly be a cool conversion.

duktu:

If it's going to be on a 40x40 base then the two guys at the rear shouldn't be able to fight, since they are effectively in the second rank.

wallacer
It sounds like you're applying logic to the rules, that's not how it's played in the GW games. Think of Thorgrim, the dwarf king - he's carried in a one heck of a bathtub by only (!) 4 dwarfs and all of them get to strike! How's that possible eludes me.
Another example - shieldbearers. The current model has two dwarfs holding the shield with both hands, but still they get one attack each. I'm not trying to think how much the fully kitted dwarf lord must weight.

I don't know how Lord Kroak and other Slaan priests palanquins looks like (i.e. they levitate or are carried?) but I'm pretty sure that if they're carried then all the carriers get the attacks.

So yeah, I think that if the sorcerer will be carried on a palanquin thing then, by the rules, all the carriers could attack. Doesn't matter if it makes sense or not, it's consistent with the current rules.

grunts:



duktu
I don't know how Lord Kroak and other Slaan priests palanquins looks like (i.e. they levitate or are carried?) but I'm pretty sure that if they're carried then all the carriers get the attacks.

wallacer
In the older edition, they were carried and there was a single stat line for the whole model to encorporate the bearers and the slaan's attacks (I think it had 6 attacks)
In the new edition, it floats.

Perhaps doing a single stat line for the sorcerer could also work. Or the palanquin is a machine that moves on its own and does impact hits like ogre bulls?

Tallhat:

It sounds like you're applying logic to the rules, that's not how it's played in the GW games. Think of Thorgrim, the dwarf king - he's carried in a one heck of a bathtub by only (!) 4 dwarfs and all of them get to strike! How's that possible eludes me.
Another example - shieldbearers. The current model has two dwarfs holding the shield with both hands, but still they get one attack each. I'm not trying to think how much the fully kitted dwarf lord must weight.

duktu
The reason why all can fight is that when applying a bit of imagination to the battle it is clear that fighting between Regiments is not as static as it looks. A good reference for how it would actually look and feel would be the various Total War games where regiments collide and intermingle when fighting. They dont just stand in front of each other in a line hacking at each other. So imagine the regiment with in this case Thorgrim being charged by a unit. A lot of the troops who charge would run into and past the first line thus letting the warriors (all 4) that are carrying Thorgrim fight.

- Tallhat

wallacer:

Doesn't matter if it makes sense or not, it's consistent with the current rules.

duktu
You're right, it is consistent with the current rules.
Funny how a Stunty Lord can balance precariously on a shield in the middle of battle but they don't seem to be able to ride a horse :rolleyes:

Not sure about the whole abstraction of combat thing, as far as ranks go. The rules make it pretty clear that units fight like Roman or Napoleonic line infantry with clearly delineated ranks (at least as far as game mechanics go). That is why spears and pikes are able to fight from the rear ranks.
The kind of non-ranked style of fighting used by Celtic and middle eastern warbands is represented in Warhammer by Skirmishers and Fast Cav.
You're 100% correct that abstraction in Warhammer is par for the course, but I think that for the most part Medium and Heavy Infantry in Warhammer operates more or less with intact ranks for the whole battle. If they didn't then it wouldn't be possible to negate them by a flank or rear attack (although again I concede that that reflects as much the panic of being attacked in the side or rear as it does actual disruption of the line formation).

Mind you, I could be entirely wrong :P

Tallhat:

laughs You sure could. Or we could. Or the whole world could be! :smiley:

- Tallhat

wallacer:

*laughs* You sure could. Or we could. Or the whole world could be! :D

Tallhat
I find it hard to believe that wargamers could be wrong. We're never wrong, we just have divergent opinions.

It's the rest of the world (i.e. the non-wargamers) who are wrong, strange, and watch reality TV.

Tallhat:

Like Paradise Hotel… Guuuurgh… I want to sacrifice the inventor of that show to Hashut in the most painful way.

- Tallhat

duktu:

The reason why all can fight is that when applying a bit of imagination to the battle it is clear that fighting between Regiments is not as static as it looks. A good reference for how it would actually look and feel would be the various Total War games where regiments collide and intermingle when fighting. They dont just stand in front of each other in a line hacking at each other. So imagine the regiment with in this case Thorgrim being charged by a unit. A lot of the troops who charge would run into and past the first line thus letting the warriors (all 4) that are carrying Thorgrim fight.

Tallhat
Yes they don't stand and swing, that's obvious. But they still fight in a ranked formation. If the attacks were explained by the troops from rear ranks charging forth, then the number of attacks should be based on the number of ranks and models in contact. While it's constant. It will be there when all the ranks will be wiped out, and will be with all the ranks intact.

The fact that the troops are charging from the rear to the front is taken into account by the means of removing casualties - you're doing it from the rear.

And about the carriers (bearers, whatever) - they're not only moving/charging into battle, they also have to carry the damn throne and keep it stable, so the lord won't fall.
If you want to use imagination here, then bear in mind that the fact that the enemy "misses" is not because your soldier/bearer just stood and the attacker hit the air. He missed because it is assumed that the defending model dodged the blow. Now doing all this - dodging, holding, stabilizing it so the lord can attack and in fact manuvering between the troops that come from the rear ranks - I don't see any logical reason for the guy to attack. But hey, the GW staff that created the rules said that he can, so as I said in the first post - he can do it. I have no problems with that, I obey the rules. I just think he shouldn't but that's my personal thought on the matter :hat off

Tallhat:

Which is a valid though. Its just not the way I imagine the battles to go. But we all have our own idea of how it works :hat

- Tallhat

duktu:

Hehe, yeah I suppose we do :slight_smile: A slave for you… well because I can’t sacrifice him right now. Maybe you’ll have more luck with that :wink:

Back on topic - I like Revlid’s version of the Palanquin, but right now it looks like copy-pasted from the shieldbeares option (with the exception of AS and base size).
So maybe give it a little twist :hashut
It could be made from the warpstone or anything else infused with magic and thus give additional power dice only for the sorcerer? I think that only lords should be given the option, because otherwise we would be seeing an army of such sorcerers :wink:

What do you think about that?

Tallhat:

It could be made from Obsidian. That way it would make sense that youd get MR from sitting on it. Oh and thanks for the slave Duktu :slight_smile: Cheers to you :cheers

- Tallhat

duktu:

But I don’t want it to be simply MR. It all have been done before. I would like to see something new. That’s why I thought of the power dice option. I’m trying to suggest something new and creative within the bounds of the game system and within reason (the palanquin could increase all the stats to 10, but what for?).

Alternatively it could be used just to move the sorcerer lord. So in this case maybe the lord could be carried by two bull centaurs? If I remember correctly, BC are quite close to sorcerers/priests of Hashut. The benefit would be of course higher M value :slight_smile:

Hmm, it seems that Grimstonefire already suggested the power dice option. Somehow I missed that. Although I don’t like the cost and the bonus armor save. Still I would vote for cheap + power dice only version.