[Archive] Playing for fun or Playing to win?

Bolg:

let me start by saying sorry, I’m probably getting really old as I really need to whine about this.

I really don’t get all the uber hardcore game play and hard as nail lists.

I know you are allowed to bring multiple rare choices, and there is no ruling for how to build your list as long as you stay with in the 25/50% that is allowed. But seriously who considers bringing 2Hellcannons/Destroyers or 2+ magmacannons. (or from another army say 2 hydra’s, 3 organ Guns/Segadons or whatever multiple nasties you can think of.

I keep seeing lists here that do this and I don’t get it. You know facing 2 hellcannons(or 2 Destroyers) + 2 Magma cannons  is no fun, so why would you bring them yourself? I might understand if its for a tournament, but really I dont. The list is only half the game, tactics is something else. you cant really say you out smarted/manoved your opponent if you bring 2 destroyers and smash them in you opponent.

Dont get me wrong, I love playing competitive and I’m an experienced tournament player. But my main goal for every game (ant least when I start) is To have fun and to have a fun game with my opponent. In 19 years of warhammer I’ve seen some crazy stuff, grown man cheating and people quitting after half a turn1. Were is the fun in that?

I dont know what my point is exactly but why spoil a game that is potentially 2+ hours of fun for 2 guys with maybe a winner with a gunline of over the top list and loads op power dice and magic.

I also play vanilla dwarves and I know from experience that just sitting back and shooting you opponent to bits is not fun to do (and as a Gobbo general I know its no fun to experience).
Now we have this awesome list and the new edition, sitting back and just shooting is no longer necessary for any army, so why still bother? last night I played a great game with CD against Empire, I brought a horde of Hobgoblins with additional handweapons, they ended up against the wrong target an unit of greatswords, with the 55 attacks I did in 2 turns I only killed 2 Great swords, but it was fun as I at least got to roll all those attacks. (as a great bonus they ran away, the greatswords wanted to restrain as they had the BSB and it needed to stay near the rest of the army, but they failed their tests and got the BSB out of range). all in all a great game and fun for both sides.

A well I think my point is; I love this hobby, its maybe the best game there is. why spoil it from the start with list that nobody wants to face?

I remember a tournament last year, I actually won to hard in the first round, so for round 2 I had to play against the most boring, predictable and scary list of Chaos demons, I got smashed and played the last game mid range in the tournament. Game 1 and 3 were both very fun and against a great opponent. To bad I also had to play game 2.

Oh and another thing, my country isn’t that big but the Warhammer community is quite extensive, still there a hand full of guys well known to 90% of all players that are known for their overpower lists and funless take to the game. You really dont want to be that guy right?

Yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak
yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak sorry.

Abecedar:

For Fun. I don’t get enough games to be power hungry. I’ve got me second maybe third game since january on tomorrow night. WoC V’s brettonians, 1500pts, Core is all fast cav and warhounds and 2 smallish blocks of chosen as I’ve sequestered the CD’s into the paint shop for now.

Larendard:

FUN! Yeah!

I love tournaments, but i very very rarely bring armies that are strong and competitive.

Usually i get some attention because of my crazy lists, kewl shirts (especially the one with ernie & bert), funky dice (got some pink ones), or simply because i am “that crazy guy who goes to a 2 day 80 man tournament with 15 tyranid models”.

Yes, i loose a lot of games, but my games are almost always memorable events. :smiley:

propervillanz:

At the end of the day it is all about fun and i always love matching power lists with another. I have yet to play a tournament, but consider my gaming group quite competitive.

Funnest game i ever played was against a dwarf castle with 3 cannons 2 organ guns 2 big warrior units with great weapons, a massive hammerer unit and a crazy lord with a 1+/4++ and all the fixings. I myself had a blender ghoul king, 2 terrorghiests, a blender vampire on a terrorgheist, 2 units of 6 vargheists, a varghulf and a couple of big ghoul hordes. It was absolutely epic, with strategy and tactics galore and ended up being decided by only 180 some odd points.

Point is i welcome hard lists as they make one not only a better player but also a better person. Is it frustrating to go up against a twin tower skaven list or a chosen star list or a dwarf castle list or a duel hydra list? Maybe, but play like you have a pair, who knows you might find that you have some fun in the process.

No offense, but i have a hard time feeling empathy or sympathy for people who gripe about lists being to hard or scream cheese. It is a game at the end of the day if it is not fun it is not worth playing. If one finds certain lists not fun it says more about them and their strategy than their opponent. As for me i say Bring on the cheese, dairy is one of my favorite food groups.

Sorry to rant and rave, but that is my 2 cents, though i guess its more like 3.

Admiral:

I always play for fun and usually have few if any considerations about the effectiveness of my armies. As such I once played in a tournament of nearly 90 people with a close combat-only Dwarf army list, with lots of Miners and no Anvil of Doom. Needless to say, I struck last place. :smiley:

That is also the reason why I will play with a close combat Chaos Dwarf army list in a tournament in the beginning of November. Though it contains a K’daai Destroyer and a unit of 40 Infernal Guards with great weapon I cannot see the potential for cheese in my list, since it includes little else at all.

Playing for fun is also quite prevalent amongst our hobby group, despite some highly competitive and cheesy, tailored lists. The fun part might, as once happened, manifest during a multiplayer game without any planning. During turn 2 one of the players spontaneously declared that the forest on the table contained an Ogre Butcher in the Woods, who would charge anyone which got near his forest. He had a sick statline and butchered everything he ran into.

Themed army lists are also a part of the play-for-fun stance amongst my friends, although these armies sometimes turn out to be fully competitive.

Singleton Mosby:

For fun of course.

I am at the moment building a Bretonnian army with over 150 men-at-arms (got the models but only two units are painted right now). No that’s no use at all as they aren’t good. But they look awesome and are a lot of fun to play with and against. On top of that, no one expects a Bretonnian player to field 3 hordes of M@As. Put some 40 bowmen besides and you’ve an almost completely infantry army :wink:

Same goes for the CDs. I refuse to take more then one Magma cannon to the field of battle.

JMR:

For fun. I think everybody does. It’s just that some people find more fun in trying to get the most out of their army, both in list building as on the table.

People are different, that’s just the way things are. The trick is finding like-minded people to play against.

Personally I like trying to make my army work well and be able to bring an answer to whatever my opponent may bring. I’m not a fan of cookie-cutter lists though and often base my army purely on what I have painted and think looks cool.

Singleton Mosby:

I'm not a fan of cookie-cutter lists though and often base my army purely on what I have painted and think looks cool.

JMR
Cookie-cutter lists?

brother_cov:

Every time I pull my models from the case, the intention is to have a fun game against a fun friend / opponent.

However, I also find the challenge of playing against an uber competitive list every now and again fun.

Sometimes its cool to step away from the themed, fluffy or balanced lists to bring out the “cheese” against a mate who is in the same mindset.

To me, its the attitude of my opponent rather than the list that makes or breaks a “fun”.

Just saying :cheers

Vogon:

It has to be fun for me too.  Some of the best and most fun games I�?Tve had were where I actually lost but the guy I was playing and I were having such a good laugh at the time nobody actually cared who won or lost but the story generated by the game (and playing �?oin character�?�) just made the evening.

There are a few in my gaming circle who started out as power gamers but soon learned the error of their ways when they ceased being able to get games.  I do however get a perverse sence of sattisfaction from beating a powergamer and his �?ounbeatable�?� list into the ground with a nicely ballanced list and actually understanding how the game works.  

EDIT: Singleton Mosby Cookie Cutter list means the standard (usually internet generated) list that everyone takes because it’s the most effective so for a given race every army looks the same like cookies out of a cookie cutter.

Cheers

Vogon

JMR:

I'm not a fan of cookie-cutter lists though and often base my army purely on what I have painted and think looks cool.

JMR
Cookie-cutter lists?


Singleton Mosby
Yes. The kind of lists or units that "everyone" takes because they have been "proven" to be really effective.

Like ogres with a Gutstar, 2 Ironblasters, unit of Leadbelchers and some Sabretusks. Or deamons with a horde of bloodletters, horrors with loremaster herald and flamers. (I guess taking flamers has changed since the White Dwarf update). There's some unit setups or even whole army lists that you just see used really, really often.
The LoA list actually tends to suffer rather badly from this too, which is part of why I don't use LoA.

Edit: Ninja'd by the master poet!

Da Crusha:

I always play to have fun but I enjoy winning also and always play to win as well. I grew up competing my whole life with Karate, baseball, soccer, wrestling, swimming, judo, jiujitsu, warhammer and bloodbowl. I enjoy competing and to me that is having fun. I have most certainly had my share of loses and still have a lot of fun when its happening, but of course I also play to win. that doesn’t mean Im not playing for fun.

Bolg:

Point is i welcome hard lists as they make one not only a better player but also a better person.  Is it frustrating to go up against a twin tower skaven list or a chosen star list or a dwarf castle list or a duel hydra list? Maybe, but play like you have a pair, who knows you might find that you have some fun in the process.

No offense, but i have a hard time feeling empathy or sympathy for people who gripe about lists being to hard or scream cheese.  It is a game at the end of the day if it is not fun it is not worth playing.  If one finds certain lists not fun it says more about them and their strategy than their opponent. As for me i say Bring on the cheese, dairy is one of my favorite food groups.

Sorry to rant and rave, but that is my 2 cents, though i guess its more like 3.

propervillanz
I'm glad you respond as it was your suggestion in th Hellconnon tactics list was the drop that started my rant. I get that you and your mates love to put cheese against cheese. But dont tell me to grow a pair, in 19 years of warhammer I've only quit a game once. And I love playing the underdog and I've beaten better lists with crazy tactics. I've also taken quite a few losses ofcourse and I dont consider myself a sore loser. its all about the game.

But can you imagine it wont be fun to play a list you suggest?

And may I ask another question: were you playing Chaos Dwarves before Tamurkhan or have you just started? As up untill last year one of the best things of playing CD was always the surprised looks of people that you met on the table "CD, oh I haven ever played those" and the like the list wasnt that great.
Cookie-cutter lists. The kind of lists or units that "everyone" takes because they have been "proven" to be really effective.
Thanx I dindnt know that expression. In my experience crazy lists do sometimes quit well against a cookie cut list as its not something you would expect.

Rab’Nappoch:

Maybe, but play like you have a pair, who knows you might find that you have some fun in the process.

propervillanz
I'm glad you respond as it was your suggestion in th Hellconnon tactics list was the drop that started my rant. I get that you and your mates love to put cheese against cheese. But dont tell me to grow a pair, in 19 years of warhammer I've only quit a game once. And I love playing the underdog and I've beaten better lists with crazy tactics. I've also taken quite a few losses ofcourse and I dont consider myself a sore loser. its all about the game.

But can you imagine it wont be fun to play a list you suggest?


Bolg
I completely agree with what Bolg is saying here.

Blue in VT:

Being certainly on the older end of the spectrum I only play for fun…In fact I will sometimes play games where we don’t even have lists…we play a narrative story that interests us…or a scenario modeled after a historical event that seems interesting. For me its about the story and certainly not about the points, the list or the win…its about having fun with my mates.

I personally abhor the tournament mentality that is so pervasive in GW product line today…thats why I still play 3rd edition.

Cheers,

Blue

Will:

Fun things are fun, as is playing warhammer.

Most players I know share a bond trough gaming that makes them appreciate each other - a great thing, because then the game is surely fair. Nobody however blames anyone for playing well. I believe the line between a strong and a cheesy list is often an unspoken pact.

Well, there are those random occasions when we tend to go a bit overboard… “How 'bout 1400 points, so I can take two hydras?” “Do it and I’ll take three magma cannons” etc. But in the end, it’s all for the fun. In fact, I usually don’t even count points when playing with friends in a non-combative manner.

Yeah, and always remember. Handshake is the key. No matter who you’re playing against, offer them a handshake when the game (begins and) ends.

Admiral:

Speaking of playing for fun, it could be mentioned that Chaos Dwarf players should avoid artillery-heavy army lists and never take 2 K’Daai Destroyers in competitive games such as tournament ones of less than 3000 pts. Whilst it might be fun to play against a cheesy list if your opponent is friendly or the list exotic, one should avoid making games boring for one’s opponents.

propervillanz:



Bolg
Point is i welcome hard lists as they make one not only a better player but also a better person.  Is it frustrating to go up against a twin tower skaven list or a chosen star list or a dwarf castle list or a duel hydra list? Maybe, but play like you have a pair, who knows you might find that you have some fun in the process.

No offense, but i have a hard time feeling empathy or sympathy for people who gripe about lists being to hard or scream cheese.  It is a game at the end of the day if it is not fun it is not worth playing.  If one finds certain lists not fun it says more about them and their strategy than their opponent. As for me i say Bring on the cheese, dairy is one of my favorite food groups.

Sorry to rant and rave, but that is my 2 cents, though i guess its more like 3.

propervillanz
I'm glad you respond as it was your suggestion in th Hellconnon tactics list was the drop that started my rant. I get that you and your mates love to put cheese against cheese. But dont tell me to grow a pair, in 19 years of warhammer I've only quit a game once. And I love playing the underdog and I've beaten better lists with crazy tactics. I've also taken quite a few losses ofcourse and I dont consider myself a sore loser. its all about the game.

But can you imagine it wont be fun to play a list you suggest?

And may I ask another question: were you playing Chaos Dwarves before Tamurkhan or have you just started? As up untill last year one of the best things of playing CD was always the surprised looks of people that you met on the table "CD, oh I haven ever played those" and the like the list wasnt that great.

I figured i set you off. I started out with Tommy H's list roughly 3 years ago and yes i can see this list wont be fun for "some people", but at the same time i do not understand the griping if it is just supposed to be a game. At the end of the day it comes down to my opponents mentality. I have ceased playing this game at hobby stores as if find most people who play there are snobs (but this just may be my area) who can't take it when their pretty armies loose and are more concerned about painted models than actual game play.

I am sorry if my Hellcannon suggestions set you off, but if figured since it was a suggestion thread i could suggest how i play hellcannons. I am competitive whether it be chess, go, disc golf, or warhammer. No matter the list i play against or play as i have always had fun and the buddies in my gaming group have as well. I guess we just don't take things that seriously.

Bolg:

@propervillanz

Although it was your suggestion that made me ask this question aloud, dont take it personal, I’ve seen more examples it was just after reading your suggestion (witch is truly valid from a maximized list point of view, especially in a topic on tactics.) that I had to ask this question aloud.

I see both out take on this is from a different perspective, and although I can’t really see the fun in the lists you play I would love to understand you better.

You say you dont play in hobby stores. So what kind of list you play is all up to you, I would not want to play them or fun but that wont happen and I can see the appeal of going cheese against cheese if this is pre determent. I think you would consider me one of those snobs, I spend hour painting and even more time sculpting and converting and I consider that a huge part of the hobby, I want my army to be special. I really dont mind losing, just as long as I can have a bit of fun (facing 2 destroyers = no fun).

@Blue

I’ve known on your take of warhammer for some time,and as I see myself playing this game for quite some time to come. I hope it will be more and more like you suggest. Only thing is I like going to tournaments, even if its just to show of my models (classic snob). Love having that conversation with random people about those old miniatures. (and If i would play an older version that would be out)

@Will

Agree, Handshake is key.

@Admiral

My point exactly, both players should have fun.

Oh and one more thing, in my local game community there is one warhammer player (there are more, I only know him) that is a classic Cookie cut player, he has vampires and Tombkings and If I go play at a bigger tournament I sometimes challenge him for a game, just to check how much I can take. As of course he also complains about every thing and tries to bend his way to a victory. He doesnt like painting. but best of all, he has no tactical insight. He still beats me sometimes and the best thing ever; I really just had to laugh aloud then. I was playing his TK with the Ravening hordes list and I was losing big time, It was turn 5 and I only had my big unit of slaves left. (I had fun, there was a great combat so no worries). then he slammed in my slaves just to finish me off, killed 50% of the unit and what not… But I passed my LD 6 stead fast test. HE actually started complaining about that. It was hilarious! I had 150 points left on the table and he diddnt see the fun in them sticking around. brilliant. I really dont see why he plays this game (and the people just like him).

A well (:

cornixt:

You have to play to win, otherwise it isn’t fun for the other player. BUT, it is perfectly fine to intentionally disadvantage yourself in order to make the game more fun for both of you. It’s the struggle to win that makes it fun! It’s no fun wiping out an inexperienced player and vice versa, so what I do is try to even things out as much as possible - give them a hill, make a sub-optimal list, have fewer points of stuff. That way I can try as hard as I can to win without holding back tactically during the game. Plus I get to use my favourite models more often.

Playing against better players or those who intentionally go cheesy because they want to wipe the floor with me, I have no qualms about producing cheese myself. I don’t tend to have many of those games though.