It seems to me that the current Chaos Dwarf list is really 2 complementary army lists that have been shoved into 1 book. I think it would be better to have a Chaos Dwarf Army List and a Hobgoblin Army List giving the first the ability to steal units from the later (as well as the Orc & Goblin list) and the later able to merge into the Orcs & Goblins or able to be used as limited mercenaries elsewhere.
Those who have been checking out other boards lately are probably aware I have been very active in developing rules for such a Hobgoblin list, however before I delve into what I’ve created fully perhaps giving an idea of what this might look like would help:
Chaos Dwarves List
Chaos Dwarf Lord
* Mount Options: Great Taurus
Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Lord
* Mount Options: Lammasu
Bull Centaur Lord
Chaos Dwarf Overseer
Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer
Bull Centaur Hero
* Mount Choices: Wolf
* Mount Choices: Wolf
Chaos Dwarf Warrior
Temple Guard (name pending)
Hobgoblin Bolt Thrower
Kollossus (Crude Steam Punk Mecha)
More War Machines?
More War Machines?
Hobgoblin Army Expansion
In addition to the Hobgoblin units in the list above if you want a full Hobgoblin army you get the additional options:
* Mount Choices: Giant Bird, Battle Mount, Wolf
* Mount Choices: Giant Bird, Battle Mount, Wolf
Khan Extra Mount Choice: Battle Mount
Archer Extra Option: Upgrade to Skirmish and/or Poisoned Arrows
Hobgoblin Battle Riders
Orcs and Goblins would get to hire Hobgoblins as well (might want to write in a way for them to hire Gnobblars too). Hobgoblins might get the option to hire a number of various greenskin units as non-requisite core, special or rare unit if it seems their list is too limited.
I think that if it goes this way, they should be similar to the HoC and BoC lists, or just separate lists that you are allowed to ally as Trustworthy allies. You don’t need opponents permission, as far as I can recall, to use allied lists. I may seem like I’m ranting, but I am just providing my points of view in a manner I hope is seen as constructive.
The CD lord IMO, should only have Taurus as mount option, the CD sorcerer should only have Lammasu. What is the role of arcane engineer? Halberds/something could be Temple Guard or Slavers (instead of halberds, have whips, meaning strike first maybe and reduces WS by 1 if hits). Hellcannon as special is a no IMO. Maybe as a rare or rare and special, but not just special. You haven’t got the death rocket, which IMO should be the third choice. Rare seems good if the BCs can be sorted to have infantry rules.
Replace tiger with giant bird for the hero. I would say DO drop the archer hero. I can’t think of armies that have this role. The Rogue hero intrigues me. Is it like the equivalent of a waywatcher hero/shadow warrior hero or something? (Can make him the archer dude and sneaky dude). Cores seem fine. I would suggest remove the exotic weapons from rare and move the tiger riders to rare. Not sure why they would have a wind elemental though, maybe replace with a large beast of burden or something…
Those changes all sound reasonable-- I knew I was forgetting something in the Special category, which is why I put the cannon there. I moved it all around now.
The wind elementals are things that the Shamans in the Khanite bind to their service or to iteams and such.
The Giant Bird (currently called “Storm Raven”) is my gryphon/wyvern-equivalent (primarilly because Easten literature is limited on giant monsters) and the Tiger (simply because of how it is statted in OK) is the Pegasus equivalent.
I added a poll to this topic so that people can post in their feelings on the subject even if they don’t want to type out a full post regarding their feelings or ideas.
I figure that once we can get a list of units all written out (even if it changes later) we can begin developing and commenting on the individual models in appropriate threads.
Okay, so the new lists IMO look much better. I also like that you’ve shown the allied contingent ruels, however, I may have to remove them and replace them with a link for copyright issues (I am not entirely clear on this matter). I prefer the idea of Wind Daemons to Wind Elemental because it implies that they are infantry-sized models in small unites, but are quite powerful. Perhaps you could start posting experimental stats and rules for the self-made units?
I have to wonder in the CD list if everyone also wants to keep the Bull Centaur Lord. It seems good enough to have them be a Rare and a Hero choice, should it really be made available as the army general?
I think it's more the BC Hero rather than the lord who should go
IMO he is not really powerful enough to warrant a rare as well
and If you have any
CD Lords, S-Ls (or at present Heros) then he can't be the army General.
I can imagine him placed in charge of a few hero-level characters though.
To be honest, and frickin’ difficult as it would be to model, I’d love to see a HUGE Wolf Monster mount.��Like a Wolf Spirit, or something.��In Eastern culture, not every supernatural monster took a unique form… some just assumed the shape of existing animals.��Has anyone ever seen Princess Mononoke?��They have wolves and boars the size of tanks, and it still has a very Asia feeling.
To be honest, and frickin' difficult as it would be to model, I'd love to see a HUGE Wolf Monster mount.��Like a Wolf Spirit, or something.��In Eastern culture, not every supernatural monster took a unique form... some just assumed the shape of existing animals.��Has anyone ever seen Princess Mononoke?��They have wolves and boars the size of tanks, and it still has a very Asia feeling.
True enough... but nothing would forbid you from tracking down bigger wolf models and using those as your equivalent while making the official rules refer to the models that everyone can easily obtain. We could even change the name of the troop to something more generic that still suggests 'big mount' and making note that many Hobgoblin tribes breed even bigger wolves rather than tigers.
Comparing a Wolf that would come between a normal one and Warghan to a Tiger stats here is the comparison:
|���������M�� WS��BS��S�� T�� W�� I�� A�� Ld
Tiger���� 8�� 4�� 0�� 4�� 4�� 2�� 4�� 3�� 4
Hero Wolf 9�� 4�� 0�� 4�� 4�� 2�� 4�� 2�� 4
So basically identical except that the Tiger gets +1A (at S4) and the Wolf gets +1M. I don't know which one we could end up going with, unless we were to say that the Tigers use the Hero Wolf stats because they are faster and not as deadly as the Sabretusks.
I wish those who voted against this had said something…
I am not sure whether they want to throw out the idea of being able to make a pure Hobgoblin force or want to see both lists rolled into a single army.
I think there is a potential idea here, but unless its seperate Steppe Hobgoblins I don’t see it being so clearly split.
With a steppe hobgoblin list, sure I can see that all your list would be fine.
However this is primarily a Chaos Dwarf book, and as such this could not work as a dual list in one book.��Take Wood elves.��I may be wrong, but all the units you can take in an all spirits list you can also take in a regular WE army?
If you look at your list if you were to add all those into one list with CD, you would have a massive list.
So in principle I think a STEPPES hobgoblin list would work, but the Dark Land Hobgoblins should be limited to 2 or 3 units.
This is not to say that you couldn’t have a variant list in the back of the book with a few additions (sorcerer, 1 or 2 specials and a rare maybe).��That would mean quite a few new things to be added in a variant list, but could be possible.��It would more likely be a WD list done properly or as a seperate supplement.
That was basically the impression I am now working under.
There will be a ‘Chaos Dwarf’ list and then a second list with a number of units not available to the CDs (The Lord and Rare choices to begin with, probably the Hounds, the Thief hero and the upgraded Wolfriders too) that utilizes entries in the CD list much like the Storm of Chaos or WD lists often do.
So it would be a supplement rather than an entire army.
—I don’t think Hobgoblins have enough in terms of units or fluff to sustain their own army book (I thought the same thing about Ogres, though). If you accept that they don’t deserve their own full army book, then they are stuck with the Chaos Dwarfs. If the Chaos Dwarfs keep Hobbos merely as a slave race, then they would need a certain proportion of their army to be Chaos Dwarfs, and then they cannot have their own list. If you can give a compelling justification for them having their own army book, then I will be happy to help.
Basically this would be done as a supplement. Like Kislev is to Empire
Well, here is the way I view it…
1) The Hobgoblin forces are bigger and own a vaster territory than the Chaos Dwarfs. They have as much or more reason to interact with most of the currently existing races.
2) Asthetically, Hobgoblin armies would be very, very cool
3) The offer an interesting mix of Goblins, Brettonians and Dark Elves tactics.
4) They are almost as popular as CDs themselves
5) Everything you just said could apply to Night Goblins and Orcs.
1) 3/4ths of their obvious core and 2/3rds of their obvious special and at least 1 hero (possible more than that) are made available to the Chaos Dwarves. Giving them an army book would mean duplicating things when, realistically, half of your army is already there.
2) If you make EVERYTHING for the Hobgoblins and EVERYTHING for the Chaos Dwarves available in a single list you an overpowered list because the two race’s strengths and weaknesses are basically opposite.
The only way I can see to handle it is to have the extra few Hobgoblin things that would finish off the list available in a supplement that in exchange removes (or possibly limits to a mercenary category along with other greenskin races) the Chaos Dwarf forces. So you can’t have the super powerful calvary and the super powerful war machines in the same army, you have to choose which you’ll use, but the rules for playing each race are still available.
I did some split lists like this on Hand of Hashut, not sure if it was lost. I thought it worked quite well at the time. I’ll see if I can find it.
Well, if you have any units you would like to see added to either list or you have a better way of doing it (I am not intending to do it the way it says in the first post here, perhaps I should edit that out…)
—The big difference between Hobgoblins and Orcs/Goblins is that Hobgoblins are virtually all enslaved by the Chaos Dwarfs. There are no Hobgoblins who are not dominated by the Chaos Dwarf empire. The Hobgoblins do not own any territory in and of themselves, they are the propoerty of their Chaos Dwarf masters. Hobgoblins are not in positions of power. I do not see how they could form their own army without starting another rebellion.
hehe… except for Olog Khan…
Hegemony fluff is in direct contradiction with Chaos Dwarf fluff…
there is no way around it without a rewrite one way or the other…
---The big difference between Hobgoblins and Orcs/Goblins is that Hobgoblins are virtually all enslaved by the Chaos Dwarfs. There are no Hobgoblins who are not dominated by the Chaos Dwarf empire. The Hobgoblins do not own any territory in and of themselves, they are the propoerty of their Chaos Dwarf masters. Hobgoblins are not in positions of power. I do not see how they could form their own army without starting another rebellion.
Are you seriously that ignorant or are you being sarcastic?
Hobgoblins have owned their own empire before the Chaos Dwarf book was ever printed and after as well.
The RPG they told about Mongolian Hobgoblins hordes who rode wolves and had Hobhonds at least as long, if not longer than they have had Chaos Dwarves and those two versions have been displayed. I have an old bestiary here that contains BOTH Hobhounds owned by the Hobgoblins of the Mournguld AND Bull Centaur from Zharr-Nagrund on top if the Great Taurus and Lammassu.
Tell you what, click on these links:
Then CAREFULLY read what they have to say.
Especially that later one, that is very, very, very important.
And once you have read those, please feel free to return here and hit the 'edit post' button.
But seriously... wow... just... wow...
There is absolutely nothing in the 5th edition book that says that the Hobgoblins are universally dominated. Not unless you seriously try to take generalities way too far. And again, the fluff for the ones at the links above is as old as the CD fluff. There is no real contradiction there.
Trying to erase existing fluff because you want your evil stunties to be more dominant than they ever have been is just... well... dumb.
There is no real contradiction there.
sure there is... how 'bout...
His army includes many of the most infamous mercenary regiments, like Manglar's Mutant Goblins, the Long Knife Orc Warriors...
Other greenskins despise them and would certainly kill them...
developed a fearsome reputation as utterly merciless warriors who will not shy from slaughtering...
They are a sneaky, evil-minded race, who remain as dishonest and cowardly in the service of the Chaos Dwarfs...
but the true problem with hegemony fluff is...
if the Khans are so vast an powerful and command the worlds largest army...
why do they stand for the domination of their kindred by the chaos dwarf?
why are they not at constant war with zharr naggrund... instead of bouncing off the walls of Cathay?
these two fluffs cannot stand side by side...
and as you are on a CD site you will find little sympathy for the contradicting DoW fluff...
these are clearly 2 different types of hobgoblins... one savage and fearsome the other sneaky and cowardly...
they cannot be the same race...
if you wish to develop CD hobgoblins you must develop the cowards... and consider the appliaction of the CD list...
if you wish to develop Hegemony hobgoblins you must develop the fearsome... and consider a DoW list...
but ne'er the twain shall meet...