AGPO:
It’d be good if we could have a colour section on army building like the other armies. After all we kinda need one more than they do…
cornixt:
I have no problem with the newer fluff being in there, I just don’t like the way it automatically eliminates the older fluff rather than adding to it. Hashut has never been described in so much detail either. There is no evidence of any of the following, they are only given as beliefs in WDP:CDs:
That Hashut actually saved the CDs.
That Hashut mutated CDs.
That Taurus and Lammasu were once CDs.
That Hashut “claims mastery of fire, iron and stone. He is a god of the deep places of the world, whose breath is a volcanic surge and whose heart pumps molten rock through his divine body.”
That all CD war machines are daemonicly possessed.
Unless these details come from another publication, like the ones around 5th edition that I haven’t seen, it shouldn’t be asserted in this document.
A smaller thing: I had to read the passage about Ghorth the Cruel several times before I worked out what it meant
Thommy H:
Edited to be less abrasive and nitpicky. Here’s the gist of it:
We aren’t ever going to please everyone with the background. We can’t add too much because then we put our own stamp on things, but we have to make it coherent or this project is a waste of everyone’s time. We’ll just host the list and point people to the wiki if we’re happy with all the minor contradictions and irrelevancies. The aim is to create a coherent, definitive document here.
cornixt:
My main objection is from turning in-game beliefs into in-game facts.
When you are happy with it, make a poll and see if everyone else is happy. I don’t think we need 100% agreement, but a significant majority. I am criticising the document because I think the overall idea is good but not quite there yet.
Thommy H:
I don’t think the belief contradict anything specific though - it’s not like there are alternative theories for Great Tauruses out there. Are any of us making them and thinking “these are great, but I don’t like the explanation that they’re mutated Chaos Dwarfs from thousands of years ago”?
Also, GW fluff does tend to be slightly skewed to the POV of the army. Not like it was in 3rd Edition 40K with everything from “primary sources”, but certainly with a bias towards the beliefs of the race being described.
Willmark:
So where does this stand now?
Thommy H:
The last version I posted is pretty final. I may tinker with the wording of the “theories”, but we’re never going to please everyone with the fluff. Pretty much everyone has something in the existing background that they’d like to change in order to accommodate their personal view of Chaos Dwarfs, but I have to be objective.
In other words, we’re waiting for sexifiers to step forward.
Grimstonefire:
I wanted to check a few things:
Tower of Gorgoth in the south, which presides over the most extensive mining complex in the world,
Source?
Mountains or the Ogres to the east, but they are only too happy to take them personally in battle, smashing aside great hordes of Greenskins with their superior tactics and technologically advanced weapons.
Spelling, but I’d also remove the ‘personally’ and change it to take them into battle.
Chaos Dwarf Warriors
There are relatively few Chaos Dwarfs, even serving in the raiding parties that leave their srongholds to scour The Dark Lands.
Spelling
Fast Cavalry
Hobgoblin Wolf Riders follow the rules for fast cavalry given in the Warhammer rulebook. However, note that due to their exceptional skill, Hobgoblin Wolf Riders always remain fast cavalry regardless of what equipment they have.
Clarify explicitly that this is in reference to taking a shield?
Thommy H:
Tower of Gorgoth in the south, which presides over the most extensive mining complex in the world,Gorgoth is said to be a mining complex wherever it's mentioned (including on the map where it has the word "mines" written underneath it a few times). As for it being the most extensive: on the map, the plateau is about 300 square miles with mines shown all around it - I'd say it's pretty damn big. I'm not aware of any other race in Warhammer that mines on that scale, or who have a single colony dedicated to mining of such vast proportions. So there's no explicit source, but it's not a controversial statement.
Source?
Mountains or the Ogres to the east, but they are only too happy to take them personally in battle, smashing aside great hordes of Greenskins with their superior tactics and technologically advanced weapons.I think you're missing the meaning: they trade them or (that's not a typo) they "take them" in battle. I'm not saying that they take them into battle, but that they are personally captured by the Chaos Dwarfs. The idea is that they trade for some of their slaves, but they also go and capture a lot themselves, which is mostly why they fight in the first place. It separates from the Dark Elves, who always take slaves themselves because they're sadistic and evil: while Chaos Dwarfs will happily capture people, they actually need them for practical purposes, so trading is okay too.
Spelling, but I'd also remove the 'personally' and change it to take them into battle.
Clarify explicitly that this is in reference to taking a shield?It's also in reference to taking light armour (or anything else for that matter). Since there's no hard and fast rules about what makes fast cavalry not fast cavalry (it varies by army book), I didn't think there was much point confusing the issue by saying which particular item they ignore the usual effects of. Better just to say something like "they're always fast cavalry, so don't worry about it".
cornixt:
I’ve not had much time to look at this, so here’s a few things. On first glance, it looked like you’d changed the parts I had a major problem with, but a more detailed look shows that many are still not right. I approach this from the point that this is a basis for the background for visitors to the site who don’t have access to the WD Presents book, so everything you say has to be consistant with the “facts” in that book. I don’t expect a sentence by sentence rewrite of the book, but I also don’t expect too many additions or changes that aren’t warranted. Also note that nearly of that book is primarily written as an outside-observer godlike view, in that everything that is said to be true really is true (and I think that this document should be too) - this style should not be confused with the often used view of a person that lives in the Warhammer World, which can be wrong and full of opinion.
Panic rules - You are probably right here, and it is easier to relate the separate rules for the units to the original pdf rather than replacing them all with something that looks rather different. For that reason, I’d prefer moving the rules about CDs and BCs ignoring panic tests to the CD units themselves (maybe ignoring panic from any unit with the Animosity rule), rather than lumping it on top of the O&G units whose other rules aren’t even mentioned (although for good reason). It took me a while to work out where that rule was in the list. Sure it means that most of the units in the army have that rule, but then most are Resolute too.
War machines - the problem with it is that you have wiped out the fluff from before the Daemonic ones. There have never been models of Daemonic Death Rockets or Earthshakers, and even the fan-made ones aren’t as common as regular black-powder machines. By ommitting any mention, you’re almost denying they exist. Weasel-words or whatever, cover both the new and the old or it will just be misleading.
Almost every mention of Hashut is a bit too embelished for my tastes.
He saved the Dwarfs, but altered both their physical appearance and their character. Dwarfs are naturally resistant to mutation, but Hashut and the power of Chaos wrought changes on them even so: they grew dark of countenance and began to sport snarling tusks. Some of them developed cloven hooves and even vestigial horns, and some he transformed entirely, making them into mighty Bull Centaurs. His prophets, those Dwarfs who had first called upon him to save them, he imbued with some of his awesome power, transforming them into mighty Sorcerers, although there was a terrible price for such talents. Some of the Dwarfs were mutated even further, changed into powerful monsters in the image of bulls: the Great Taurus and the Lammasu. Unlike most Chaos mutations, the deformities of the Chaos Dwarfs are highly stable, and they do not exhibit the kind of gross changes that mark out the followers of other Chaos Gods."You are jumping to conclusions here. Hashut may be their patron god, but there is no fluff to say that he helped them, mutated them, or anything beyond the generic forces of Chaos being responsible. When it comes to Taurus and Lammasu, it is a CD belief that he did, but nothing more. I know that it is implied, but it is not enough.
Centauroid rule: How about calling it Unmounted Cavalry.
Hobgoblins rule: How about calling it Hobgoblin Panic
There are lots of little bits that need to be neaten up, grammar and such, but I’ll leave that for when the content is more finalised.
CheTralfara:
In your notes section about the Sneaky Gitz free reform rule, you call the US GT Errata, an FAQ. This is incorrect and it is important to differentiate the 2 (FAQs vs. Errata), as Errata are official corrections that fix errors and typos, while FAQs (even though made by GW staff) is unofficial and is considered optional “house rules”.
If you do not beleive me, then read the introduction to the Errata & FAQ section on the GW official site. They are very different things, and one has real value, while the other (the FAQ) is very frequently a misinterpretation of the rules and makes things even more broken and complicated (see the Daemons FAQ if you don’t believe me).
Example: Karanak does NOT cost 75 points PLUS the price of a standard Fleshhound. It clarifies this 3 seperate times in the army book (including in the sample army!), but the moron who wrote the FAQ tries to tell us that both Karanak and Changeling costs are upgraded from a trooper. Not true at all and clearly worded as otherwise. They would be both ungodly overpriced and completely worthless were we to take this FAQ error seriously).
It’s a shame how at tournaments the FAQs have some kind of actual standing… instead of just using common sense. It’s obvious that the writers of the army book had no input on the FAQ (so WE may as well be making it!)… at least in the Daemons one.
Thommy H:
Reply deleted.
I think I officially don’t care about this project any more. I’m deleting all my previous replies with attachmnts in this thread - I would kindly ask those of you who have downloaded the various documents I’ve uploaded not to use anything from them in future endeavours.
cornixt:
Okkily dokkily.
I might do something on the rules-side similar to the original intentions, but I think I’ll leave the controversy with the fluff and bestiary out of it for a while.