[Archive] Rebuilding the Blunderbuss

Thommy H:

And the calculation for comparison I posted above show the gap between the 2, in targets hit and wounds done, with the original rules being better by almost 100%, wounding almost twice as many.
And against a smaller unit, the reverse is true. One of the weaknesses of the current blunderbuss rules is that they can't handle small units or single models - they can only inflict one hit against a lone character even though we would imagine the whole unit is concentrating their fire on one guy. The fire zone rule is certainly interesting and has its advantages, but against anything but a large unit of infantry, it's not that good. Now, I happen to think that that's a valid weakness of the current rules, but the argument that simplifying the rules into multiple ranks firing makes them unilaterally worse doesn't hold much water.

cornixt:

Alric, I don’t think your example is very representative of a real game. I could count on one hand the number of times that I have had 40 enemy in the firezone at once, even with a much wider blunderbuss unit.

Thommy, I think that a simple 3 rank S3 shots is a bit dull, it is like HE with bows used to be. Unless you are really upping the to-hit rate, I have a lot less confidence in their usefulness at being able to actually kill much that is armoured, let alone the wide range I could with the (godawful) firezone rules.

Thommy H:

My rules also remove all hit modifiers, so they can move and fire without penalty and they ignore cover. They’re also rather nasty against skirmishers. Essentially they still always hit on a 4+ like before. What I’m really trying to do is keep the character of the unit without having to rewrite the book on shooting rules, which I think the fire zone method does. Ideally, they should be easy and intuitive to use: multiple ranks achieves that. No, it isn’t glamorous, but only long-time Chaos Dwarf players are going to notice there’s a difference at all! If we imagine these rules appear in a brand new Army Book, a lot of people will just take them at face value and they won’t suffer by comparison.

mattbird:

Without having tried them at str3 AP-1 yet, I’m with Thommy on this one.

Grimstonefire:

Why should blunderbussers be able to fire in three ranks though??  Two ranks would be more balanced, though most races can't even manage that.
Because they already do: why do you think they get a Strength bonus for a third rank under the current rules?


Thommy H
They don't fire in three ranks at the moment, as there is nothing specifically to say they do.   Nobody does, not even elves.  They have the benefit of multiple ranks behind them, which for some obscure reason makes their weapons stronger(!), but otherwise they have the same restrictions as everyone else ;)

Which is why I expect this to be resolved in an army book to make them more like other missile weapons.

4 ranks shooting from a hill is too much.

Personally I think it comes down to choosing between high strength shots, or many shots.  I don't think it's balanced to have both with CD (not for unrestricted core anyway). S4 -1AP is probably as high as I would go.

Thommy H:

They don't fire in three ranks at the moment, as there is nothing specifically to say they do. Nobody does, not even elves. They have the benefit of multiple ranks behind them, which for some obscure reason makes their weapons stronger(!), but otherwise they have the same restrictions as everyone else
I meant in fluff terms. The increased Strength comes from the back ranks poking their weapons through. Why did you think it was?

Otherwise I don't really get your objection. You're correct that they don't fire in three ranks now: that's what makes these rules new. If we weren't going to change anything...well, refer to what I've been saying to Alric.
4 ranks shooting from a hill is too much.
I forget whether I put a thing in my rules that mentioned this. Either way, they shouldn't be able to get any additional benefit from being on a hill I don't think.
S4 -1AP is probably as high as I would go.
Strength 3, AP is what I've gone with. Anything else is excessively powerful.

Grimstonefire:

I meant in fluff terms. The increased Strength comes from the back ranks poking their weapons through. Why did you think it was?

Thommy H
No idea, I always thought that part of the rules was stupid.  Traditionally firing in multiple ranks increases the number of shots, not the strength.  Fluffwise it would be the equivalent of the rear ranks shooting at Strength 1 to add to the S3 shot.
Strength 3, AP is what I've gone with. Anything else is excessively powerful.
Depends on the other factors, but with your version I agree.

Another point to consider is x2 multiple shots (fire in 1 rank).  This has the benefit of being in keeping with the fact that virtually nobody can fire in multiple ranks normally, plus it is quick to work out.

Compared to thunderers you'd only need a unit half the size to get the same shots (admittedly you'd need more to counter the short range), but on a hill they'd be deadly in a big unit.

If you did include the +1 rank on hill thing in your version, 2 ranks firing x2 is the same thing and much more in keeping with the existing warhammer missile weapons.

Thommy H:

No idea, I always thought that part of the rules was stupid. Traditionally firing in multiple ranks increases the number of shots, not the strength. Fluffwise it would be the equivalend of the rear ranks shooting at Strength 1 to add to the S4 shot.
Yeah, it's the increased weight of fire. The fact that it makes no sense is the very reason so many of us would prefer better rules. Multiple ranks is the most logical and consistent way of representing the effect as described in the fluff.
Another point to consider is x2 multiple shots (fire in 1 rank). This has the benefit of being in keeping with the fact that virtually nobody can fire in multiple ranks normally, plus it is quick to work out.
But then you don't get the more ranks = better shooting effect. What are the blunderbusses doing to get those extra shots? This may be a background issue though - if you didn't realise the higher Strength was supposed to represent more models firing, you wouldn't go straight to multiple ranks as a decent solution.
Compared to thunderers you'd only need a unit half the size to get the same shots (admittedly you'd need more to counter the short range), but on a hill they'd be deadly in a big unit.
Yes. Shorter range, less Strength. They're different weapons, after all. I'm not sure why the comparison even matters actually - they work differently from Thunderers because they're a different unit. That's as it should be.

Alric:

And the calculation for comparison I posted above show the gap between the 2, in targets hit and wounds done, with the original rules being better by almost 100%, wounding almost twice as many.
And against a smaller unit, the reverse is true. One of the weaknesses of the current blunderbuss rules is that they can't handle small units or single models - they can only inflict one hit against a lone character even though we would imagine the whole unit is concentrating their fire on one guy. The fire zone rule is certainly interesting and has its advantages, but against anything but a large unit of infantry, it's not that good. Now, I happen to think that that's a valid weakness of the current rules, but the argument that simplifying the rules into multiple ranks firing makes them unilaterally worse doesn't hold much water.


Thommy H
Except for 2 things that you are over looking , one being the most obvious if you are shooting at only 5 models then regardless of everything else you can only kill 5. So saying the reverse is true is silly. The RH rules are just as good or better against small units depending on the unit, (and clearly better against large core units), you have the option of higher strength and if you want you have the option to use concentrated fire.
they can only inflict one hit against a lone character even though we would imagine the whole unit is concentrating their fire on one guy.

Thommy H
Nope , not unless you completely ignore the concentrated fire rules, that are for such circumstances.You are over looking this rule the same rule you use for "stand and shoot". So even against single models or characters, or chariots the original rules still do as well or better.

The calculation for comparison I posted above show the gap between the 2 (fire in ranks and RH rules), in targets hit and wounds done, with the original rules being better by almost 100%, wounding almost twice as many.

As other experienced chaos dwarf army players know blunderbusses are not an archer missile fire like unit, they are a melee units that has the added ability to deliver 1 or 2 volleys of shooting before entering hth. Its amazing to me how many people that say they play the chaos dwarf army don't know the original rules and don't understand one of it's signature weapons. If you want missile fire just create a unit of crossbowmen.

Thommy H:

if you want you have the option to use concentrated fire
Excuse me? I think you're confusing the rules from the 4th Edition White Dwarf presents: Chaos Dwarfs with the current rules.

Alric:

if you want you have the option to use concentrated fire
Excuse me? I think you're confusing the rules from the 4th Edition White Dwarf presents: Chaos Dwarfs with the current rules.
Excuse me ? What do mean you by confusing please elaborate, because they are very clear.

Thommy H:

No…I mean confusing old rules which haven’t been legal in about a decade with the current rules as they appear in Ravening Hordes. None of the rules in White Dwarf presents: Chaos Dwarfs are current. They’re not compatible with 7th Edition.

Alric:

The concentrated fire rule is the same rule for stand and shoot. If you are not using the concentrated fire rule for stand in shoot rules for blunderbusses then you have been doing it wrong. As this is a thread to examine the blunderbusses then its amazing to me that you would ignore the concentrated fire rules as they resolve shooting at single models.

Thommy H:

The concentrated fire rule appears in White Dwarf presents: Chaos Dwarfs, which also discusses that stand and shoot works the same way. Unfortunately, those rules were superseded by the rules given in Ravening Hordes and the stand and shoot rules for them in a later FAQ.

Unless you’re talking about something else?

Grimstonefire:

A summary so far I think:

#1

18" range.

Strength 3,

-1 Armour Piercing

First rank fires as normal, with a +1 Strength bonus for each model directly behind them, up to a maximum of 5. No other ranks fire - they just contribute to the Strength of the shots from the front ranks. All to hit penalties are ignored.

#2

Allow the entire unit to shoot against a large target (as they can all see it) but they lose any rank modifier to their strength).

#3

16" Range

Strength 4

-1 Armour Piercing

x2 multiple shots.  

Move or shoot.  

No to hit modifiers (except large target).

#4

18" range

Strength 4 (or 3?)

-1 Armour Piercing

2 ranks can fire

To hit modifiers ignored

#5

18" range

Strength 3

-1 Armour Piercing

3 ranks can fire

To hit modifiers ignored

#6

Firing zone etc with ranks adding strength. All models caught in the zone take one hit per unit strength.

3+ to hit

Behind soft cover a 4+

6+ behind hard cover.

1�?� - 12�?� Strength 4.

12�?� - 18" -1 Strength (regardless of ranks)

#7

Concentrated fire from WD Presents

#8

Some combination of these:

1) max range of 20

2) str4 up to 10, st 3 11-20"

3) all in two ranks can fire ( much like the old high elf rule in 5th)

4) can fire into combat, but not if chaos dwarfs or bull centaurs can be hit.

5) if firing into combat, victory points go to your opponent for blowing away your own troops (balances this somewhat)

6) -2 AS @ 1-10" / -1 AS @ 11-20"

7) multi wound creatures/constructs: as many within range can fire; example if a giant is bearing down on a BB unit of say 20 in two ranks… All 20 can fire and potentially hit the giant.

8) 4+ hits as the current rules.

Thommy H:

18" range
Strength 4,
-1 Armour Piercing
3 ranks can fire
Strength 3, actually. Strength 4 is too powerful. Also, to hit modifiers are ignored.

Grimstonefire:

Edited a little.  Guess to each their own as far as preferences for WA:CD :slight_smile:

With so many possibilities it’s next to impossible to find the ‘best’ one.

This might be interesting to do as a poll actually.

Thommy H:

Well obviously there’s never going to be a right answer! It’s all a matter of preference. What’s interesting is that there are so many different ideas on how to implement the effect of blunderbusses - my feeling is that the current fire zone rules are quite inadequate, being quite clunky and inconsistent. They work but I don’t think they have much place in the modern game.

Alric:

The concentrated fire rule appears in White Dwarf presents: Chaos Dwarfs, which also discusses that stand and shoot works the same way. Unfortunately, those rules were superseded by the rules given in Ravening Hordes and the stand and shoot rules for them in a later FAQ.

Unless you're talking about something else?

Thommy H
Yes and those resolve at what range you shoot at to determine the number of chargers you may potentially hit. They also say the rules for stand and shoot "are applied exactly as with any other unit". As in only the front rank shoots , and then you apply the rules for strength bonus for ranks. So a 15 man unit,  5 models across in 3 ranks would fire 5 strength 5 hits. And you use the same rules now when shooting at single models, characters etc.  which are identical to the original concentrated fire rules.

Thommy H:

This is what the FAQ says about blunderbusses standing and shooting:

“The rules are applied exactly as with any other unit.

If the chargers start within 12”, then any models within

12" may be hit. If the chargers are outside 12", the

charging unit is stopped at maximum range as normal �?"

so in this case only the front rank of the charging unit

will be in the zone of fire."

I don’t think that means they roll to hit with their BS or anything. Note the use of the term “fire zone” in the last sentence. I’m not sure how having the blunderbusses fire “normally” would even interact with the Strength bonus. My interpretation of “applied exactly as with any other unit” is that blunderbusses fire using their own method of shooting - just as stand and shoot is performed by every other unit according to their method of firing. There’s certainly nothing in the rules I just pasted that suggests only the front rank gets to fire, or that it follows any outdated rules from WD presents: CD.

And you use the same rules now when shooting at single models, characters etc.
Says who?