[Archive] Size of the potential fanbase?

Grimstonefire:

Just out of curiosity, how big do you think the potential fanbase for a completely new Chaos Dwarf army would be?

I read time and time again all over the web that people think the CD fanbase would be pretty much restricted to CDO +HoH, and so there is no point whatsoever making a new army!

But then again, we’re only the crazy few buying models for an army that is not supported in any way, has no models (except hellcannon), no rulebook, has not had an update in a very long time and has an uncertain future…

Doesn’t exactly add up to Chaos Dwarfs having a fanbase now that’s the size of Dwarfs/ Empire/ lizardmen etc does it…

I know there are certain armies that are much more popular than others, but is there any reason if they are done properly why Chaos Dwarfs would not sell equally as well as Dwarfs for instance?  Being a completely new army, for the first year of release would they not sell on a massive scale?

Just curious what people think.

cornixt:

I agree. There are several times more people who would buy CDs if they had a book and models, even if the rules were poor and the models too. The existing fanbase is rather small though, I have no idea how we currently compare to the other less popular armies who do at least have a fanbase already known to GW.

ryanamandaanna:

It seems that we have a pretty thriving fan base here. :cheers

As for others, I’ve noted that every time I show my Chaos Dwarfs at the local GW, most people not only like them, but they’ve heard of this site and ask if I use it. There is also no denying that the CDs that come with the Hellcannon are simply awesome-looking, and a whole army comprised of similar models would sell like hot cakes. :hat

snowblizz:

As you say we’d be looking at a new army. So Ogre Kingdoms and Dark Eldar are the natural starting point for a comparison I’d say. Suffers from all of the same issues that CDs as a new army would. Pretty much no models, no rules and little established background.

Of course estimating the number of players is impossible really, only GW could make a rough and I mean rough guess.

To claim that only the current fanbase would be a potential fanbase for a new CD army is ludicrous as by that reasoning OK would have a fanbase of exactly zero. That clearly isn’t the case. Same with DE. Both armies have grown a following. In fact go back far enough and most armies would fall in the “does not have a fanbase” category.

So how much would CDs sell? I don’t know, maybe not Dwarf numbers but I’d say along the lines of OKs plus us crazy existing players.

Grimstonefire:

As you say we'd be looking at a new army. So Ogre Kingdoms and Dark Eldar are the natural starting point for a comparison I'd say. Suffers from all of the same issues that CDs as a new army would. Pretty much no models, no rules and little established background.

snowblizz
At what point did ogres fall into this category?  They've had models on sale as long as I can remember and since their book they are officially supported as much as any other army by a large range.

You mean in terms of the long term interest.  I would agree with that.  There are certain armies that (imo) have much smaller fanbases, perhaps because of the rules, the background, the models or the general impression of all of these (whether true or not).

Tomb Kings and Ogres I would lump into this category, right at the bottom of the popularity stakes.  There is nothing wrong with that, somebody has to be at the bottom.  If you put these bottom level armies at 9 and 10 on a scale of popularity, would CD be a 1 at most?  I.e. so few people would collect them they would hardly register?  That is the impression I get from lots of people around the web!

Would I rank CD next to Ogres...?  Certainly not in the short term, but the long term would depend on how well they do them.  Aside from their first release I doubt they would ever rank in the top half.

krusty:

well to make a start out of the forums i have seen there is sufficent interest,even more then tomb kings (hear more about chaos dwarfs then them including recent games workshop literature). I dont know how many members there are here but for a start about half would get a full army of new minis and the rest would get some models or a couple of units (the conversion work is amazing by everyone,ive yet to see one model here that is not equal to or better then existing models being created by games workshop and would not imagine people sopping using them just cos the new models were out) plus most people will always dabble with a new army or even get a couple of units even if they dont intend on starting that army (not me,i end up being one who gets a model or 2 and ends up with armies in the 10000pt plus range)

Id say overall they would do much better then tomb kings,ogre kingdoms and be equal to wood elves and lizardmen. That is just my opinion

Zaramuskharaz:

I feel much like the same about the Dogs Of War. Their are, to me, the greatest army side-by-side with CDs.

An I mean armies made COMPLETELY of Dogs Of War. Tilean city-states uniting against invasions from the Empire or Brettonia (Voland is better than those ‘honorable’ knights, or so they say he bested them).

You see, they are very restrictive armies. Why? Why there are no official current models nor rules for them. About sites, we have DogsOfWarOnline by our ever-great Willmark. And the Merchant Prince.

To have an army of these guys, the hobbyist must face a LOT of a challenge. Money, conversions, time… and even if the other players will ACCEPT fighting such armies. I feel this all the time when I battle my fellows here using my Adeptus Mechanicus (FanCodex Tempus Fugitives).

People say that Chaos Dwarfs and Dogs Of War are WEAK. I prove they are wrong!

TwilightCo:

Rules and assorted background aside the models will be the make or break aspect of the army. I, for instance, loathe the big hats (although there have been a few examples that were not too bad… damn good in fact) and would not be willing to go out and pick up a new range that I didn’t like.

BUT, that’s just me! :mask

BilboBaggins:

I keep hearing people playing at GW, usually after seeing my Chaos Dwarfs on the board, that they would love to start a CD army. I’ve gave an approximate number of people registered on CDO and was told that there are 5 times that playing Dwarfs. But you have to figure there are more people who would play an army than there are registered on a website dedicated for that army.

Then they go they would have to create new molds.

My argument is yes, a mold for heads with different beards, masks and hats that they could sell seperate to the Dwarf models to make them Chaos Dwarfs. Maybe make a Blunderbuss conversion kit for Thunderer/Quarreller box. Death Rocket (Helstorm) Earth Shaker (Flame Cannon, Empire Mortor) Bolt Throwers (Goblin Spear Chukkas or Dwarf Bolt Throwers).

Of course Dogs of War are simple conversions of Empire and Bretonnian models. just put out a Book. People will buy the book, there are people who will buy books even for armies they don’t play. They would be selling models they already have out. They don’t want people using Dogs of War with other armies (Crossbows with Chaos Armies) that I’ve rarely seen. I’ve only seen one chaos player using a ROR unit (Rudlugs) and it didn’t really help him out. Just change the rules of what armies can take what.

Thommy H:

GW will not put out an army without a full model range to support it. That’s just their policy now. They don’t just put out rules and expect people to deal with the models by themselves - when GW creates an army, they also design an entire product range around it, with staggered releases.

Chaos Dwarfs won’t ever appear as some kind of half-assed “conversion kit” release, or a list in White Dwarf or something. They’ll either emerge full-formed, or not at all.

BilboBaggins:

So SOC and Lustrias Zombie Pirates were the last ones they released without a full model range. There was a time when GW loved people going conversions for armies. They really need to start thinking about the gamers again.

Kera foehunter:

i think 3/4 of all dwarf players!!   1/2 the elf player   1/3 of chaos players would play cd
But tha’ts of the top of my head

BilboBaggins:

Add about 1/4 of the Empire Players, 1/2 of the Ogre Players, and 4/5 of the Orc and Goblin Players.

Servius:

I think what people miss is that many of the Warhammer Gamers are misenthropic compulsive buyers that buy it because it looks cool… I mean I have Chaos Dwarf, Empire, High Elves, and Wood Elves. At one point I also had Warriors, Skaven, Dark Elves, Vampire Counts, Dwarfs, Lizardmen, Bretonnians, Orcs and Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms, and Tomb Kings… The only Fantasy Army I have NEVER owned is Beastmen. Due mainly to the fact that while I like the models… I can’t stand their rules.

I think that alot of people are put off by the age of the army coupled with the constant complaints from people that it isnt legal more than anything… If a book was printed I would expect alot of interest from both new and old players alike just because its the new thing and everyone will ooh and ahh over them.

Think about it… How many players do you have in your area have Army A.D.D. and cant seem to decide on an army?

I do partly disagree with Thommy as far as what they release and their policies… I could see them releasing a List in a White Dwarf… They did it rather recently with Blood Angels… and then provided the models in a rerelease of some of it.

Where I doubt this will be the case with Chaos Dwarfs I will say that I won’'t put it past them… White Dwarf sales have dropped substantually over the last 2 years. their subscription rate is next to non existent and my local shop which use to sell out in a few days still has last months issue in the backstock in rather large quantities. Something like an Army List would drive Sales. Personally… I wouldnt mind it either way… I will say again… I doubt that this will be the case.

As far as releases… I really thing the Warseer rumour is Chaos Dwarfs… CD holds the best potential for the First ALL Plastic army. as the entire range would need to be addressed. Even empire still have pewter floating around in the form of Characters and Monsters. CD could easily be made to do completely plastic. Another point to make on that is the fact that their hasnt been much in the way of new plastics lately… I mean sure. new Greatswords and Temple Guard… And a few super heavys and special things in space marines… but compared to this time last year… GW had released nearly twice the amount of kits as what has been done currently… which speaks to me to say that they are saving their manufacturing budget for something on a large scale.

Back on topic… I think that in Essence we are all fans of Warhammer. and being such we love every army and have interest in them. I just think that because of the age, people have begun to ignore CD especially since the release of them not being GT legal in most areas.

Henroth:


Just out of curiosity, how big do you think the potential fanbase for a completely new Chaos Dwarf army would be?

I read time and time again all over the web that people think the CD fanbase would be pretty much restricted to CDO +HoH, and so there is no point whatsoever making a new army!

But then again, we're only the crazy few buying models for an army that is not supported in any way, has no models (except hellcannon), no rulebook, has not had an update in a very long time and has an uncertain future...

Doesn't exactly add up to Chaos Dwarfs having a fanbase now that's the size of Dwarfs/ Empire/ lizardmen etc does it...

I know there are certain armies that are much more popular than others, but is there any reason if they are done properly why Chaos Dwarfs would not sell equally as well as Dwarfs for instance?  Being a completely new army, for the first year of release would they not sell on a massive scale?

Just curious what people think.


Grimstonefire
The Chaos Dwarfs, to be at present, a legend army. If GW to take to the Chaos Dwarfs, to be a great successful world. Here, in Spain, to be very awaited.

Kera foehunter:

well at least everyone talking about cd that the first steps

Baggronor:

I think that alot of people are put off by the age of the army coupled with the constant complaints from people that it isnt legal more than anything.. If a book was printed I would expect alot of interest from both new and old players alike just because its the new thing and everyone will ooh and ahh over them.
Agree, most of the negative notions of CDs come from the cack-handed way the old list and range was handled/abused. Redoing them would almost certainly wipe the slate nearly clean, particularly with the way they write and present the army books now.

And of course the power level of the army list itself could also draw in more players. DoC are wildly overpowered, that brought them loads of new players, and it was clearly no accident.

BilboBaggins:

The funny thing is I haven’t seen people playing Daemons where I play. Warrior of Chaos yes, Daemons no.

snowblizz:

At what point did ogres fall into this category?  They've had models on sale as long as I can remember and since their book they are officially supported as much as any other army by a large range.

Would I rank CD next to Ogres...?  Certainly not in the short term, but the long term would depend on how well they do them.  Aside from their first release I doubt they would ever rank in the top half.

Grimstonefire
Before the release of the Ogre Kingdoms armybook there was no Ogre Kingdoms army or models. Only a scattering of Ogre models and some very little background to go with them (nothing to tie them with the later incarnation really). Basically despite the existence of Ogre models the Ogre Kingdoms army was a completely new concept.

I think the same will essentially be true for CDs, for all intents and purposes the slate is clean. Just as Ogres were reinvented for Ogre Kingdoms I'm betting CDs will be similarly treated. How close the reinvention will be to the original remains open. That's another discussion.

I am merely attacking the idea that "CDs do not have fanbase = CDs can never be made" that's clearly a preposterous idea as I think I've proved.

Now in the short to midrange I would expect CDs to sell as well as Ogres (i.e. completely new army for most people) however somewhat boosted by enthusiastic support from the existing Zharr-nuts. So all in all better prospects than Ogres.
Since popularity is difficult to gauge, I'd put CDs in the thematic-cool-but-not-rules-OP area with TK, OK and Beastmen in terms of sales. Certainly not Empire,O&G,Chaos,Elf popular but definitely able to pull their own weight.

Baggronor:

I am merely attacking the idea that "CDs do not have fanbase = CDs can never be made" that's clearly a preposterous idea as I think I've proved.
Ye, I don't think GW would ever look at it like that either.
So all in all better prospects than Ogres.
Exactly, when they released OK me and my mates thought 'Who the hell wants a whole army of Ogres', yet plenty seemed to buy em.
The funny thing is I haven't seen people playing Daemons where I play. Warrior of Chaos yes, Daemons no.
You're lucky then, my area is swarming with the buggers. :|