We had a disagreement yesterday on the rules and the spectators joined the side of my opponent however I would really need some help from the more experienced players here, so I took some pictures and wrote down the arguments before folding my claims as I usually do when I’m not quite sure myself anymore.
Upper left corner: Hellcannon, Magmacannon, Daemonsmith
Lower right corner: Chaos Chariot, lvl 4 of Tzeentch on Disc and Chaos Knights.
This is the situation, the Hellcannon fails it’s Ld test but my opponent won’t allow me to pivot it so the base crosses the edge of the table so it can charge the chariot, which is it’s closest enemy. My claim is that it won’t matter that it’s base pass over the table edge when I pivot it as long as it is placed with it’s base inside the edges of the table after the pivot.
Q: Can a unit near or on the board edge pivot (or wheel) so that part of the unit (or its base) is temporarily off of the board? (p27) A: Yes, though it is not allowed to end its movement with part of the unit (or its base) off the board. Magic
Warhammer FAQ You won that one
Bloodbeard
There was a further argument that it could not charge because of my Daemonsmith however with wheeling and closing the cap I argued it was a possible charge. So, should the Hellcannon have charged the Chaos Chariot? Rules say “If the Ld test is failed, pivot the hellcannon to face the closest enemy unit. It is then subject to the random movement (3D6) special rule until the beginning of the next turn, except it can only move forward”
Anyhow, since I dropped my case the Hellcannon charged the second closest enemy, a chariot close to the table edge and wrecked it. This situation happened then:
So, I ask, can I still not pivot over the edge of the table? Is the Hellcannon locked in place, however I am allowed to place it like this because there’s a “difference between a reform and a pivot”
In the same way I wasen’t allowed to pivot my magmacannons so they turned in the air above the daemonsmith and there was an argument I couldn’t pivot them so they where within 1" of other units, now I argued warmachines does not have base-sizes… I’m not sure myself and it would very much affect my strategy.
Anyhow, lost the game bad and this wasen’t anything really gamechanging except when my magmacannon wasen’t allowed to fire on my intended ashstormed target… I would have lost it badly anyhow, Endtimes WoC w. nurgle-marked chariot-core
Any insight appretiated and much needed!
Furthermore…
Is free reform possible while under ashstorm? A.i. is reform and free reform considered basic movement?
Regarding pivoting in general, if a pivot would take a model within the 1" of another model, would the pivot be illegal or would you simply adjust the pivoting model?
From what little I know of the new rules, etc… It doesn’t matter if the edge of your base goes over the table edge b/c warmachines don’t need to be based, as you pointed out in your message. Furthermore, if I recall correctly table edges come into play when charging moving retreating, etc. and then basically in a common sense way. What I mean by this is if you lose a combat and are forced to retreat and your only avenue of escape will take you off a table edge then the unit retreating is removed from play. If you want to get at an enemy and you have to cross a table edge to do so then this is also forbidden. Unless I’m mistaken pivot is not considered movement therefore should be allowed. I don’t know if the current incarnation of the rules support this, but this how we did it when I playing back in the day.
From what little I know of the new rules, etc... It doesn't matter if the edge of your base goes over the table edge b/c warmachines don't need to be based, as you pointed out in your message. Furthermore, if I recall correctly table edges come into play when charging moving retreating, etc. and then basically in a common sense way. What I mean by this is if you lose a combat and are forced to retreat and your only avenue of escape will take you off a table edge then the unit retreating is removed from play. If you want to get at an enemy and you have to cross a table edge to do so then this is also forbidden. Unless I'm mistaken pivot is not considered movement therefore should be allowed. I don't know if the current incarnation of the rules support this, but this how we did it when I playing back in the day.
Mivrash Faz
Yeah think its still the same.
Under "Random movement" in Rulebook it is stated that if the unit with random movement comes within 1" of friendly unit or impossible terrain, it stops immediately.
So correctly played the Hellcannon should have pivoted to face the chariot and stopped 1" behind the Daemonsmith :)
As per the FAQ the Helcannon would be allowed to pivot to face the chariot and would move towards it but would have stopped 1" away from the Daemonsmith - remember it’s not charging the chariot, it’s making a random movement in that direction.
In the second case the Helcannon is allowed to pivot even though it’s up against the board edge, but must use its movement to clear the board edge; the FAQ specifically says it can pivot over the edge provided it ends it’s movement fully on the board.
For the third case warmachines don’t have bases, so provided the actual magma cannon miniature itself (remember crewmen don’t count) doesn’t come within 1" of the Daemonsmith, they can pivot regardless of the base size you’ve mounted it on.
My group plays with “based” war machines, so in the 3rd case we would most likely play it as the base edge of the war machine being 1" away from the daemonsmith. This is more of a “house rule” though as Dînadan is correct in saying war machines in the rules wouldn’t have bases.
As per the FAQ the Helcannon would be allowed to pivot to face the chariot and would move towards it but would have stopped 1" away from the Daemonsmith - remember it's not charging the chariot, it's making a random movement in that direction.
In the second case the Helcannon is allowed to pivot even though it's up against the board edge, but must use its movement to clear the board edge; the FAQ specifically says it can pivot over the edge provided it ends it's movement fully on the board.
For the third case warmachines don't have bases, so provided the actual magma cannon miniature itself (remember crewmen don't count) doesn't come within 1" of the Daemonsmith, they can pivot regardless of the base size you've mounted it on.
Hellcannon stands like this after a pursuit (this is a staged example though) and fails it’s leadership-test, what happens? Nothing OR will it “bump” the unit backwards like this:
Some other things I’m pondering after the last game:
*Would the Hellcannon also be allowed to pivot “over” other units like over the table-edge?
*A Hellcannon schlurping it’s handlers or loosing them in other ways, will it roll on the monster-reaction table?
*Daemonsmith’s within 3" of a warmachine, can it be targeted by regular shooting, as the 2+ Look out Sir! only rules for templates?
Hellcannon stands like this after a pursuit (this is a staged example though) and fails it's leadership-test, what happens? Nothing OR will it "bump" the unit backwards like this:
Some other things I'm pondering after the last game:
*Would the Hellcannon also be allowed to pivot "over" other units like over the table-edge?
*A Hellcannon schlurping it's handlers or loosing them in other ways, will it roll on the monster-reaction table?
*Daemonsmith's within 3" of a warmachine, can it be targeted by regular shooting, as the 2+ Look out Sir! only rules for templates?
MadHatter
I assume in the photo example you mean that since it failed it's leadership it must move randomly 3d6 towards the nearest foe? You cannot move your opponent's model in this case as it effectively blocks your pivot to move, so you'd have to lurch 3d6 forward (staying 1" away from your opponent's model).
As to your questions: 1. No. You cannot pivot over units unless it is part of breaking from combat to flee.
2. Yes. It is a monster with handlers and would need to take the test if it loses it's dwarfs.
3. Yes. The Deamonsmith can be targeted by regular shooting. The "Look Out Sir!" roll would be 4+ though not 2+. The Deamonsmith would have to be in a unit of the same troop type as himself to get the roll on a 2+. This is much the same as if he were within 3" of an infantry unit and dismounted. He would get a 4+ because he is not part of the unit.
I assume in the photo example you mean that since it failed it's leadership it must move randomly 3d6 towards the nearest foe? You cannot move your opponent's model in this case as it effectively blocks your pivot to move, so you'd have to lurch 3d6 forward (staying 1" away from your opponent's model).
As to your questions:
1. No. You cannot pivot over units unless it is part of breaking from combat to flee.
2. Yes. It is a monster with handlers and would need to take the test if it loses it's dwarfs.
3. Yes. The Deamonsmith can be targeted by regular shooting. The "Look Out Sir!" roll would be 4+ though not 2+. The Deamonsmith would have to be in a unit of the same troop type as himself to get the roll on a 2+. This is much the same as if he were within 3" of an infantry unit and dismounted. He would get a 4+ because he is not part of the unit.
Is free reform possible while under ashstorm? A.i. is reform and free reform considered basic movement?
This is a good question. Didn't see it before when scanning through the post.
As I see it....I don't have my rulebook in front of me to double check. You have the following types of movement.
1) move
2) march
3) charge
4) flee
5) pursue
6) random movement
7) overrun
8) reform
9) swift reform
10) make way!
11) declining a challenge and moving to the rear of a unit
12) entering/leaving units and buildings
A "reform" granted freely out of the normal movement phase or regularly is still a "reform". RAW would seem indicate that it is not a basic move because there is specific terminology used to differentiate the two. RAI could be considered "basic" since you need to have a musician and perform a Leadership test to perform a "swift reform" in the remaining moves sub-phase...thus it is basic. I guess it really depends on how your group plays the rules. I prefer RAW because you can point someone to what it says in a document and it reduces ambiguity.:hat off
