[Archive] The big cavalry debate

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

Would you count rhinox riders and bloodcrushers? :stuck_out_tongue:

grunts:

ooooh, if bloodcrushers count as cavalry I’m changing my vote to bloodcrushers. They’re pure “ouch” in model form

AGPO:

For the purposes of this debate, “cavalry” consists of all mounted units and centoids (e.g. Dragon Ogres, Centigors) with a move of 7" or more (i.e. enough to flee and pursue 3D6) So yes bloodcrushers and Rhinox riders are certainly in :slight_smile:

Hashut’s Blessing:

Do minotaurs count? After all, the pursue 3D6", but not flee and are M6 :wink: I’m just being pedantic, but bloodcrushers are fairly hefty.

Warhounds: never bothered as the models were too expensive to be sodding fodder :wink: Also, my playing style didn’t suit to wasting 30+ points and I tended not to use the Knights for the simple reason: too many points for being too easy to kill.

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

For the purposes of this debate, "cavalry" consists of all mounted units and centoids (e.g. Dragon Ogres, Centigors) with a move of 7" or more (i.e. enough to flee and pursue 3D6) So yes bloodcrushers and Rhinox riders are certainly in :)

AGPO
ok forget what I said rhinoxs riders are the best! :)

Willmark:

I was shocked that they gave lances back to Chaos Knights, as if they weren’t bad before now they are slipping back to uber-bad in terms of stats, almost like they went back to the 3rd edition stat line.

Its kinda of funny. With Warhammer GW lurches from one extreme to the other in terms of being to bland to to extreme. People used to complain that 5th edition was “Hero-hammer” in fact it was, but look at it now, its getting there. Its as if GW has an issue of trying to balance Warhammer, they can’t seem to do it.

slev:

I loved 6th as it gave us a unit-based wargame, where the characters where impotant on their own.

Unfortunately, a lot of folks didn’t for the same reason…

snowblizz:

I was shocked that they gave lances back to Chaos Knights, as if they weren't bad before now they are slipping back to uber-bad in terms of stats, almost like they went back to the 3rd edition stat line.

Willmark
They are basically back to 5th ed stats, but I think that is sort of justified.
The interesting thing is where the Internet majority have already condemned the lances as bad option, pay more for a S6 charge, whereas S5 (and magical attacks!) all the time will most likely be better all round.
Though I'm hoping my friend who has the old knights will be pleased, if I can convince him to get of that drug known as WoW.
Its kinda of funny. With Warhammer GW lurches from one extreme to the other in terms of being to bland to to extreme. People used to complain that 5th edition was "Hero-hammer" in fact it was, but look at it now, its getting there. Its as if GW has an issue of trying to balance Warhammer, they can't seem to do it.

Willmark
Different people having different visions me thinks. Every new "generation" of designers bring something of what they think WHFB is supposed to look like. But to me it seems like they have started to go more on a unit to unit basis when trying to find balance, which is why we see so many units getting such boosts.

Servius:

Ok, Having been on 2 Playtests for GW now. Empire and High Elves… One thing I can tell you are these new generation GW developers are lazy. This is supported in the fact that they no longer playtest their own books. They send a beta so to speak out to players they know to be active with that army (usually tournament players, and some times GW bunker employees) you get these non disclosure agreements that you have to fill out and have your opponents fill out and send back in with your results… They give you a work sheet that basically a fill in the blanks… Unit, Choice, Spec rules, Stat, Etc. Then at the bottom there a large section to put your thoughts and notes. and you return it. They take that last section and after looking over it any that get stated a few times get changes then the process repeats… usually after 2 or 3 playtests they go to print… Now i’m not saying that they don’t balance the books before hand. they do. I can speak from experience that I felt that both the Empire and HE books were more balanced in the test than final product.

The problem is not with this directly, the problem is that alot of the time the playtesters simply lie. They get on IM, Email, and other mediums and discuss everything with the other playtesters… they decide that this is good… this isn’t, this should stay the same. Not thinking of balance but rather what will give their army an edge. then after they have decided they send in… GW sees that there a lot of feedback on specific things and they take this as it needs a change. No one can make me believe that VC or Daemons were properly playtested… Helm of Commandment Rings a bell… as does the Slaaneshi Daemon lore…

Im my honest opinion they need to keep everything relating to Army Book writing, testing and otherwise in house.

Back to the topic at hand…

Best Fast Cavalry Choice: Hobgoblin Fast Cavalry… Ok, Humans with -1 leadership and animosity, on wolves, can get 4+ save, and have bows. The only thing that would make them better would be minimum unit size 5+. Forest Goblin Spider Riders are my personal 2nd favorite.

Best Heavy Cavalry Choice: This is tough. I am between 3 choices… Vampire Count Black Knights, Savage Orc Big’un Boarboyz and High Elf Dragon Princes.

Ok, let me explain. While Rhinox Riders, Blood Knight, and Juggernauts are good… I feel they are a bit pricy for their own good… while correctly priced, they tend to be target numero uno for good reason. a stout player can dedicate 2 round of 2 warmachines and sometime remove the threat. even a good round of magic will hose them pretty well. My above are great for their price… are hard hitting enough to cause problems against any foe and all have special rules to help along the way… The Black Knights are a hard prospect for any opponent as many times a player will attempt to place terrain to maximize their firing lanes while funneling their opponent… Black Knight dont get a rats… The Boyz have their ward and frenzy to see them through to the enemy… so getting rid of them early is usually very difficult. and they hit like a freight train! The dragon princes are basically immune to damage magic… as most armies use Fire or Metal to take out knights… they are immune do to their armor… they are a hard prospect for another knight stopping tactic… early charge… some may never have heard of this one… Its when a skirmisher or fast cav unit flanks or rears the enemy to hold them from charging the next turn… usually one or maybe 2 casualties are taken in the cav unit and the fast cav/skirmisher is left with a few models in combat to hold them until the block of infantry can get in. this is much more difficult to do with them as they have the ASF rule. I have had Dire Wolves rear charge me… only to slaughter them unmass and then charge the unit they didnt want me to on my turn.

Sorry for the 2 treatises on that one… Rant over…

superfella:

i always liked empire knights of the white wolf until the current empire book was released.

+2 str on the charge & +1 at all other times was ace. now they are just great weapons, which arent as effective on cavalry.

i have a large empire army (4000 pts +) which has 5 units of 10 knights, but i painted them from all different orders.

a lot of people turn up their nose at imperial cavalry, but at (i think) 23 points a model for ws 4 str 5 and a 14 inch charge, they arent half bad.

unfortunately my main opponents are dwarves & vampire counts, so they tend to bounce off rather than breaking through unless i combine my charges or have a pair of decent characters in the front rank (arch lector for hatred & captain for bsb or magic weapon).