[Archive] Thoughts on Ogres?

Cobra7:

Will be playing a tournament on June 2nd and it seems the majority of the armies are ogres. I have very limited experence playing against them, but as a good tournament player I have read the book, have good understanding of them via battle reports and podcasts.

Now I was wondering how to defend against them in this tournament. I have 56 infernal guard, BSB, 3 Hellsmiths, 5 Bull Centaurs, 2 magma cannons, 2 deathshriekers, K’daii destroyer. List is 2500.

I am not someone who counts on magic to win, but of course am always ready to take advantage of it just in case.

My question is, using what I have, how should I defend against the various units in a typical ogre list?

My current thoughts are focus magma cannons on mournfang, deathshriekers on ironblasters. BSB will likely have the +2 str axe that kills flammable stuff and try to combo it with ash storm. Any other good combo’s I should use?

tvandyke:

Will be playing a tournament on June 2nd and it seems the majority of the armies are ogres. I have very limited experence playing against them, but as a good tournament player I have read the book, have good understanding of them via battle reports and podcasts.

Now I was wondering how to defend against them in this tournament. I have 56 infernal guard, BSB, 3 Hellsmiths, 5 Bull Centaurs, 2 magma cannons, 2 deathshriekers, K'daii destroyer. List is 2500.

I am not someone who counts on magic to win, but of course am always ready to take advantage of it just in case.

My question is, using what I have, how should I defend against the various units in a typical ogre list?

My current thoughts are focus magma cannons on mournfang, deathshriekers on ironblasters. BSB will likely have the +2 str axe that kills flammable stuff and try to combo it with ash storm. Any other good combo's I should use?

Cobra7
I just played in a 2 day tourney just over a week ago and faced a typical Ogre list. I had no problems at all against it. Our army is well suited to for it. I took out his big cannon thingie with two single shot Deathsrheiker hits. I used an Ash Storm/Flames of Azgorh combo to wipe out 7 ogres from one of his big blocks in one magice phase. I tried the combo again in the next magic phase and he dispelled Ash Storm but I still got off Flames of Azgorh and still managed to kill 6 Ogres from the unit including his BSB. My two IG units had no problems beating those two Ogre blocks with only 4 or 5 Ogres (and a couple of characters) in them. My Destroyer took on his unit of Mournfang and ate them alive, no problem at all. I never got to use my Magma Cannon because his Cannon thingie killed it in the first turn, but I'm sure it would have been awesome against all those 3 wound models, especially if they had ash storm on them. I don't even remember what my Bull Centaurs did. Just sit back with your war machines and IG units and hit the hell out of his army with Magic and war machines and let him come to you. I didn't even move my IG units until he was with 6" or so of them. I used my Destroyer to protect my flank against his scout unit and his Mournfang. His Mournfang charged the Destroyer. I have a Battle Report on the main Chaos Dwarf discussion thread called SAWS Challenge.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

The one thing I’ve found Ogres really dislike is the Lore of Shadow and Hobgoblins.  Twice now I’ve had the super-block of Ogres hit my block of 60 Hobbos, they hold, I debuff the Ogres in my magic phase, and break them with all my crappy attacks.  Do you know how hard it is to get victory points out of a 60-model unit that is Steadfast Leadership 10?!

Grimbold Blackhammer

Cobra7:

The one thing I've found Ogres really dislike is the Lore of Shadow and Hobgoblins.  Twice now I've had the super-block of Ogres hit my block of 60 Hobbos, they hold, I debuff the Ogres in my magic phase, and break them with all my crappy attacks.  Do you know how hard it is to get victory points out of a 60-model unit that is Steadfast Leadership 10?!

Grimbold Blackhammer

Grimbold Blackhammer
In my experience, Lore of Shadow is almost always the best choice. However, at Adepticon I was running a Slann with shadow and the ogre player had a 20 bulls and characters in a single unit with the banner that moves the target of a spell. This is the only time I played against the new ogre book and what has me concerned.

The problem with Chaos Dwarfs is if we take shadow on the monster, we risk our general being shot by the iron blasters. Besides, at most we get 2 shadow spells.

Baggronor:

LoA is one of the few armies that isn’t really scared of Ogres. The flaming attacks negate their regen spell, the Destroyer laughs in the face of Mournfangs and our war machines can seriously hurt them. Just make sure you take out the Ironblasters asap and get the match-ups right.

jaegerbomb77:

Well, I am on the other side of this debate, i think we have a lot to fear from ogres. I have a large ogre army plus one of my good friend has a large ogre army that he just took to adepticon. he placed very well. his list consisted of 25-27 gw ogres, 2 lvl 4 , 3 firebelly and a bsb all in one horde block,2 ironblasters, 3 sabretusks. the thing about this block is that it moves super fast, it has massive amounts of wounds, the key to this block is that u can not target it with any magic, ogres have a 60 point banner that basically bounces all spells off it… our magma cannons, really dont hurt them, the destroyer might kill a few, but it will lose to combat rez

IMHO ogres are the most powerful army out there

Ugly Green Trog:

Well, I am on the other side of this debate, i think we have a lot to fear from ogres. I have a large ogre army plus one of my good friend has a large ogre army that he just took to adepticon. he placed very well.  his list consisted of 25-27 gw ogres, 2 lvl 4 , 3 firebelly and a bsb all in one horde block,2 ironblasters, 3 sabretusks. the thing about this block is that it moves super fast, it has massive amounts of wounds, the key to this block is that u can not target it with any magic, ogres have a 60 point banner that basically bounces all spells off it..  our magma cannons, really dont hurt them, the destroyer might kill a few, but it will lose to combat rez

IMHO ogres are the most powerful army out there

jaegerbomb77
Sounds like a pretty cheesy build imho. But surely you can negate combat rez by flanking it with stuff? I tend to only play casually so probably wouldn't play this list on account of the fun factor being a little low here.

jaegerbomb77:

well, this was a tourney so, you will see chessy builds. as by flanking it, it is fine, the damage output is ridiculous. plus he is stubborn on a reroll 9, to be honest there isnt much that could flank it and win, as this block is literally in your face turn 2

tvandyke:

Well, I am on the other side of this debate, i think we have a lot to fear from ogres. I have a large ogre army plus one of my good friend has a large ogre army that he just took to adepticon. he placed very well.  his list consisted of 25-27 gw ogres, 2 lvl 4 , 3 firebelly and a bsb all in one horde block,2 ironblasters, 3 sabretusks. the thing about this block is that it moves super fast, it has massive amounts of wounds, the key to this block is that u can not target it with any magic, ogres have a 60 point banner that basically bounces all spells off it..  our magma cannons, really dont hurt them, the destroyer might kill a few, but it will lose to combat rez

IMHO ogres are the most powerful army out there

jaegerbomb77
No doubt this would cause problems for LOA, but it would cause problems for any army. I was only pointing out that the tools we have (lots of fire, magic and war machines that cause multiple wounds per model, the Destroyer, etc) are well suited for an army that is entirely made up of multi wound models (if you don't count noblars) that love having a regeneration spell cast on them. I'd much rather play against the Ogre army above than most of the Skaven monstrosities that are out there.

Baggronor:

25-27 gw ogres, 2 lvl 4 , 3 firebelly and a bsb all in one horde block,2 ironblasters, 3 sabretusks. the thing about this block is that it moves super fast, it has massive amounts of wounds, the key to this block is that u can not target it with any magic, ogres have a 60 point banner that basically bounces all spells off it.. our magma cannons, really dont hurt them, the destroyer might kill a few, but it will lose to combat rez
You can still hit the block with Purple Sun; vortexes have no target so they ignore the Rune Maw. It even says so in the Rune Maw description ;) Same for Flames of Azgorh - it targets a point on the battlefield, not a unit; in this case you're targeting the point just underneath the centre Ogre :)

The best answer to these kind of silly deathstars is just to redirect them with chaff. A couple of units of fell bats/small units of giant rats/similar stuff can keep them busy all game for next to no loss. LoA would likely have to send in a few suicide Khans on wolves, which is irritatingly expensive, but meh.
IMHO ogres are the most powerful army out there
Daemons still win out overall imo. 2x50 Bloodletters (Herald with Firestorm Blade to knock out regen first ofc) and a Tzeentch Herald with Loremaster Death/Shadow will show Ogres how it's done.

jaegerbomb77:

not entirely true on flames, it is a direct damage spell, and under BRB, it has to target a unit, you are right on purple sun. it is the only spell that can truly hurt them

Baggronor:

not entirely true on flames, it is a direct damage spell, and under BRB, it has to target a unit, you are right on purple sun. it is the only spell that can truly hurt them
Spell description says target a point though. Hmm FAQ time?

zhatan87:

IMHO ogres are the most powerful army out there
Yes, Ogres are one of the best army now.

But CDs are one of the best suited to fight against...
Death lore : purple sun
Hashut lore : ash storm and flammes (of course if there is no maw rune standard)
magma cannon : 1D3 wounds
hellcannon : always a good weapon against LD9 army
destroyer
khan on wolf
stubborn BSB and guards to hold the deathstar (in column)
iron daemon (one of the most feared if well played (for shooting only, then hold some thing nasty if necessary)
And many others things...

I find that the CDs are more suited to fight against them than many other armies...:)

Bitterman:

Ash Storm is absolutely awesome against that kind of Ogre deathstar that seems to be fairly standard nowadays. Can’t march, charge, or cast spells? Great, that 1500point deathstar full of heroes and casters is doing nothing. Meanwhile line up your Magma Cannons (D3 wounds, doubled if flammable due to Ash Storm!) and even Iron Daemons are worth taking against them - not if they get in combat obviously (can’t stomp) but the guns are superb at taking out Monstrous Infantry. Two Magma Cannons make an absolute mess of a large Ogre unit.

About the one thing in a typical Ogre army we struggle to deal with IME is Mournfangs, which are just too fast and tough to do enough damage to before they get in combat and start munching. And there’s only one Ash Storm to go around…

tvandyke:

About the one thing in a typical Ogre army we struggle to deal with IME is Mournfangs, which are just too fast and tough to do enough damage to before they get in combat and start munching. And there's only one Ash Storm to go around...

Bitterman
That's what the Destroyer is for.  Mine beat the hell out them and ran them down in one round of combat.

Ugly Green Trog:

not entirely true on flames, it is a direct damage spell, and under BRB, it has to target a unit, you are right on purple sun. it is the only spell that can truly hurt them

jaegerbomb77
what about pit of shades (I think thats the shadow insta death spell) and rolling a whole crap ton of dice to "force" an IF to get past the banner, It could massively hurt alot of ogres with their low initiative.

jaegerbomb77:

again , pit is a direct damage spell, how the banner works , that on a 2+ the spell is “bounced” off the group, if it is bounced it goes to the next eligible target, if not target, spell is wasted. it is 60 points of pure anti magic

Ugly Green Trog:

again , pit is a direct damage spell,  how the banner works , that on a 2+ the spell is "bounced" off the group, if it is bounced it goes to the next eligible target, if not target, spell is wasted. it is 60 points of pure anti magic

jaegerbomb77
Ah ok so it isn't dispelling it then just shunting it off so IF won't help.

Ugly Green Trog:

again , pit is a direct damage spell,  how the banner works , that on a 2+ the spell is "bounced" off the group, if it is bounced it goes to the next eligible target, if not target, spell is wasted. it is 60 points of pure anti magic

jaegerbomb77
Ah ok so it isn't dispelling it then just shunting it off so IF won't help.

Bitterman:

…after making it sound like I knew what I was talking about, I played against Ogres today and got bent over the table and spanked.

I got outmanouevred (M6 vs. M3, fair enough), out-magicked (cast one Fireball in the whole game that killed a 20 point cat), out-shot (cannons that move and shoot and are also chariots! stone throwers that can move and shoot and can’t misfire and are also monsters and make everything nearby strike last! grapeshot guns that can move and shoot without penalty and with longer range than fireglaives!) and out-fought (Mournfangs with breath weapon magic standards! Irongut hordes!). In other words, my opponent dominated every single phase of the whole game… easily.

I was tabled by turn four. My Magma Cannon didn’t even get to fire before it was destroyed by a move-and-shoot cannon; my Deathshriker tried to return fire but missed, then died on the second turn.

I really genuinely thought we had the tools to take on Ogres. Either (a) we don’t or (b) I suck at Warhammer (either seems possible). Maybe if I’d taken two or three Magma Cannons it might have been different, though with move-and-fire cannons around I’m not sure how much difference it would have made; and I deliberately didn’t take the Destroyer, which would unquestionably have helped. Pretty much everything else in the list would still have got thrashed, though.

Anyway probably best to ignore any tactical advice I give from now on as apparently I know nothing!