Geist:
Deleted due to bad language
Dînadan:
Unless I’m mistaken they still have 1st ed up on their site as a free download - try that out while you’re waiting for 2nd ed to be released (I’m planning on picking it up myself at some point, but won’t be giving up on 8th, it’ll be an alternative, not a replacement for me). They should still have all the 1st ed army lists up aswell for download.
Doombeard:
I think that 4 pages of rules is meant as a quickstart thing for new players, the real rulebook will come later, along with codexes etc . I wouldbt be surprised if minis get full stat lines and what we are seeing is a stripped back version of the game designed for kids as an entry level system, so they aren’t put off by having to collect huge armies and paint a boat load of mini’s. I think the main rules will be out by August to rival KoW.
Geist:
I really doubt there will be anything other than warscrolls and 4 pages of rules. Because if you look around the warscrolls are going to be ready to download from black library when AoS goes out.
Kings of War:
I have seen the first ed stuff and read over the in the works second edition stuff. So far I am liking what I am seeing.
cornixt:
Four pages buys you a lot of rules really, especially if you offload most of the special rules to the scrolls. I’ve even seen a 1 page version of 40k (small text, but still). Is there a reason that you are going to another rule system rather than sticking with 8th ed?
Heavygear:
Next weekend is the Buckeye Battles Tournament in Delaware Ohio. Next year will be the 10th year and there has been some talk that this year may be the last as AoS doesn’t appear on the surface to lend itself to tournament settings. There has been some talk of switching systems. Among the ideas being thrown around
http://www.armiesofarcana.com/
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war.html
http://www.ralpartha.com/index.php/chaos-wars/15-chaos-wars-demo-rules
Heavygear:
Four pages buys you a lot of rules really, especially if you offload most of the special rules to the scrolls. I've even seen a 1 page version of 40k (small text, but still). Is there a reason that you are going to another rule system rather than sticking with 8th ed?This is a valid point. Warmachine and Hordes starter rules are about this size. The majority of the rules are found on the cards for each miniature.
cornixt
I don't think it is the quality of the rules (although no points values will make balance an issue IMHO) so much as it is the fact that they really bare little resemblance to the Warhammer that has been around for the last 30 years.
One thing AoS has in common with KoW is there is no Weapon Skill to Weapon Skill rolls or Weapon Strength to Toughness rolls. No charts. The values To Hit and To Wound are set values provided in each models stats. The stat lines are almost the same in both games. Different conditions just add modifiers to the dice rolls.
Heavygear:
I think that 4 pages of rules is meant as a quickstart thing for new players, the real rulebook will come later, along with codexes etc . I wouldbt be surprised if minis get full stat lines and what we are seeing is a stripped back version of the game designed for kids as an entry level system, so they aren't put off by having to collect huge armies and paint a boat load of mini's. I think the main rules will be out by August to rival KoW.That is some wishful thinking. Reportedly GW is telling retailers this is it. There will be no 9th edition. Warhammer Fantasy Battles is Dead. They don't want to sell army books anymore. They want to sell War Scrolls. Right now the scrolls are free. In the future I can see them selling Battalion and Special Formation style Special Rules on there handy dandy new GW app they just trotted out last week. They have been testing the waters with this for some time now.
Doombeard
In a way it makes sense. Online documents are easily changed and updated. It takes them years to update army books and codices. They can add models and units and special characters or change rules whenever they want.
Loidrial:
I would say go for Mantic game.
If you are planning to change entirely, even if the game is dead, you can still find minis and cards for Confrontation.
Best game I ever played.
Bloodbeard:
Warhammer Fantasy Battles is Dead.No. It's unsupported by Games Workshop. Bloodbowl, Mordheim and Battlefleet Gothic ain't dead.
Heavygear
There is no system like Warhammer 8th edition. It'll survive, perhaps even thrive. Good compilede houserules and erratas.
I want to try out KoW at some point as well. Because I can use the miniatures I have for it.
Mantic has a nice way to look at their games and events.
- Bring anything you like, you are there to have fun.
And when the "all armies will die, armybooks won't get upgraded. your collection is worthless!" rumours were all around Mantic said this:
- As part of KoW 2, we'll make a bunch of free armylists that'll let you use any current GW armies. They might not fit into the fluff off our setting, but you can use your army with our system.
Smart for business, great for the community.
Dînadan:
I don't think he meant that 9th will be out, but rather what we have are the stripped down 'quick start' rules and there will be something with a tighter rulesset that fills in all the holes people are finding over on Warseer. There's also been people speculating that there won't be codicies/army books but there will be fluff books with a few scrolls crammed in the back, but that's all it is - speculation/wish listing.I think that 4 pages of rules is meant as a quickstart thing for new players, the real rulebook will come later, along with codexes etc . I wouldbt be surprised if minis get full stat lines and what we are seeing is a stripped back version of the game designed for kids as an entry level system, so they aren't put off by having to collect huge armies and paint a boat load of mini's. I think the main rules will be out by August to rival KoW.That is some wishful thinking. Reportedly GW is telling retailers this is it. There will be no 9th edition. Warhammer Fantasy Battles is Dead. They don't want to sell army books anymore. They want to sell War Scrolls. Right now the scrolls are free. In the future I can see them selling Battalion and Special Formation style Special Rules on there handy dandy new GW app they just trotted out last week. They have been testing the waters with this for some time now.
Doombeard
In a way it makes sense. Online documents are easily changed and updated. It takes them years to update army books and codices. They can add models and units and special characters or change rules whenever they want.
Heavygear
I don't think so myself, but we'll wait and see. Still won't replace 8th for me though.
Thommy H:
I actually quite like Kings of War as a system, but every time I try to point up my existing Warhammer armies I stumble at the first hurdle because every unit has to be in ranks of 5 or 10 (or cover the same footprint) and it’s also really hard to hack the system to stat up smaller or larger units. I tried to work out a “points per model” version once but gave up pretty quickly.
Dînadan:
I actually quite like Kings of War as a system, but every time I try to point up my existing Warhammer armies I stumble at the first hurdle because every unit has to be in ranks of 5 or 10 (or cover the same footprint) and it's also really hard to hack the system to stat up smaller or larger units. I tried to work out a "points per model" version once but gave up pretty quickly.I think that's because you're not supposed to work it on a model by model basis. In fact, considering the stat line, your probably better off sticking with AoS if you want single minis :P
Thommy H
I think it might help to think of KoW more along the lines of 28mm Warhamster than a Warhammer analogue.
Heavygear:
I actually quite like Kings of War as a system, but every time I try to point up my existing Warhammer armies I stumble at the first hurdle because every unit has to be in ranks of 5 or 10 (or cover the same footprint) and it's also really hard to hack the system to stat up smaller or larger units. I tried to work out a "points per model" version once but gave up pretty quickly.Why the need to break it down like Warhammer Fantasy? What is the purpose or advantage in taking say 12 models vs. 10 or 15?
Thommy H
Steadfast doesn't exist in KoW and each unit size in KoW has a set number of attacks with set "Morale" scores. Why not just shave your units to the correct number of models or add unit fillers? You don't pull models in KoW so unit fillers are ideal,
Dînadan:
+1I actually quite like Kings of War as a system, but every time I try to point up my existing Warhammer armies I stumble at the first hurdle because every unit has to be in ranks of 5 or 10 (or cover the same footprint) and it's also really hard to hack the system to stat up smaller or larger units. I tried to work out a "points per model" version once but gave up pretty quickly.Why the need to break it down like Warhammer Fantasy? What is the purpose or advantage in taking say 12 models vs. 10 or 15?
Thommy H
Steadfast doesn't exist in KoW and each unit size in KoW has a set number of attacks with set "Morale" scores. Why not just shave your units to the correct number of models or add unit fillers? You don't pull models in KoW so unit fillers are ideal,
Heavygear
In fact, the entire unit could be a unit filler as you stick to the set models and having them based on a single large base is valid. All that is needed is that it can reasonably pass as whatever number the unit size is (eg 1 goblin representing 20 is a no, but 35 goblins and a troll arranged in a diorama is okay).
Thommy H:
I have units that are 6+ models wide because it made the best use of the figures I had - my Immortals, for example, are ranked so they cover a 7x4 footprint. I can field them smaller, but they have bases, unit filler, movement tray, etc. that mean they won’t look as good if I do.
By “single miniature”, I don’t mean so I can play with individual models! I mean so I can work out what the stats and points cost of an unusually-sized unit like that should be. If a “troop” (10 models in two ranks) is worth x, what are 12 models worth and how do they fight? For that I need to reverse engineer the maths.
Which I appreciate is not a weakness of the system itself, but it’s a barrier to me embracing it. I also have stuff like a unit of 40 zombies, which is arbitrarily illegal in KoW!
Dînadan:
I also have stuff like a unit of 40 zombies, which is arbitrarily illegal in KoW!In what way? I'm looking at the free download list now and it has '40' listed as a unit size for zombies.
Thommy H
Thommy H:
Oh, I think that’s changed since I last read it then - they used to come in only 30/60 iirc.
Anyway, I’m not averse to hacking it to make it fit what I need, but as I said I get halfway through and decide it isn’t worth it. The Nerve values are quite tricky to figure out because it isn’t a smooth progression. And obviously that’s by design, so I’m not complaining exactly, just it would be good to be able to field units of whatever size I want instead of 10/20/40.
Thommy H:
Thought I’d already answered that - I don’t want to alter my armies to fit in with KoW’s particular unit sizes. I’d rather hack the rules than make new movement trays.
JMR:
Odd repost there, Heavygear.