[Archive] Using FW warmachines = cheating?

nilbog:

Something occured to me while using the FW models. As they are quite big, it is very easy to see over our troops and fire at something. However, they are quite big because they are modelled on steam carriages.

Having the warmachines mounted on a steam carriage is an option, which we should be paying for, if we want it. So, is using the extra height of the models without actually having invested the points in it cheating? Or is this offset by having a huge warmachine that can easily be targetted itself?

deadlydeceiver:

Yeah, I thought about this too ^^

But hey, when you buy the model it doesn’t state anywhere, that the model is f.ex. a Deathshrieker on a SC. Its just a Deathshrieker.

So how do you know that it is supposed to be a steam carriage…? Maybe a steam carriage would have 6 wheels and a smoke stack ^^

So IMHO our Warmachines are the official models in either case and can be used with or without SC.

DD

MLP:

I thought about this myself and came up with three things:

1: Most opponents(and CD generals) don’t realise this so it won’t often come up.

2: Like you say - if you can see more enemy, more enemy can see you. So the difference is offset somewhat.

3: There’s no other models available anyway.

Thommy H:

Yeah, LOS is generally swings and roundabouts so I don’t think it matters but, technically, they shouldn’t be on the carriages if you don’t pay the points and have an Iron Daemon to cart them around. Your opponent would need to be a real prick to try and enforce this though - it’s probably in the same category as not letting you use old big hats as Infernal Guard or something.

Da Crusha:

I think the same thing, the models are the official models for the war machines and not just steam carriage versions. but since I dont have plans on buying them Im going through the effort to convert my own to look the appropriate size. otherwise I feel like I would have an unfair advantage of having smaller models that could be harder to shoot and easier to maneuver.

Baggronor:

Hooray for true LoS. This is one of the issues with 8th edition.

If I convert a Daemonsmith standing on a rock, my Daemonsmith can see better than yours - mine is now better, even though we paid the same points. This is stupid. But, it is the rules.

What it ultimately boils down to is that True LoS means you can actually draw uninterrupted LoS through the gaps between models, between the Destroyer’s legs, etc. So height of machines isn’t really that big a deal 99% of the time. It certainly isn’t worth people arguing over it.

And yes, bigger machines get seen easier, though the payoff of seeing more enemy targets is very much worth it.

It’s not worth losing sleep over, let alone converting non-carriage mounted versions of your war machines. The model is the model, it’s fine. :slight_smile: No different to Warp Lightning Cannons being assembled in different ways, some of which are taller than others. And if Skaven can shoot over their own troops, we sure as hell are too.

IzNoGood:

and anyway I always measure LOS from the top of my really big hats…

rpitts2004:

Hooray for true LoS. This is one of the issues with 8th edition.

If I convert a Daemonsmith standing on a rock, my Daemonsmith can see better than yours - mine is now better, even though we paid the same points. This is stupid. But, it is the rules.

What it ultimately boils down to is that True LoS means you can actually draw uninterrupted LoS through the gaps between models, between the Destroyer's legs, etc. So height of machines isn't really that big a deal 99% of the time. It certainly isn't worth people arguing over it.

And yes, bigger machines get seen easier, though the payoff of seeing more enemy targets is very much worth it.

It's not worth losing sleep over, let alone converting non-carriage mounted versions of your war machines. The model is the model, it's fine. :) No different to Warp Lightning Cannons being assembled in different ways, some of which are taller than others. And if Skaven can shoot over their own troops, we sure as hell are too.

Baggronor
Cheating? Heck no, it's the rules true LoS makes it better for us, thats just how they are it's not like we are putting them on giant rocks or anything. Check out the warp lightning cannons in this picture


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

With what Bagg said, if Skaven can do it, better believe I have no issues with our warmachines. Skaven are just cheesy... GET IT? CHEESY!

Swissdictator:

Some had e-mailed forgeworld about using old CD warmachines and they said that by all means use them as the warmachines off the carriage.

The forge world models seem clearly on the carriage, plus you have to BUY the steam carriage in the list. So if you’re paying points for a ‘better vantage point’ I don’t see how it can be seen as cheating, since you are quite clearing paying points for it. Plus, you’re making it easier to see or ‘hit’ you as well. If I throw a cannonball or stonethrower at you, you’re a bigger target!

So I don’t see anything wrong with it, I say go ahead and use it… though if you do, pay the proper upgrade.

Personally I’ll rock my old school warmachines sans carriage.

rpitts2004:

Some had e-mailed forgeworld about using old CD warmachines and they said that by all means use them as the warmachines off the carriage.

The forge world models seem clearly on the carriage, plus you have to BUY the steam carriage in the list. So if you're paying points for a 'better vantage point' I don't see how it can be seen as cheating, since you are quite clearing paying points for it. Plus, you're making it easier to see or 'hit' you as well. If I throw a cannonball or stonethrower at you, you're a bigger target!

So I don't see anything wrong with it, I say go ahead and use it... though if you do, pay the proper upgrade.

Personally I'll rock my old school warmachines sans carriage.

Swissdictator
I don't pay for the upgrade and I promise you 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of Chaos dwarf players don't pay for it either. If it was a big deal Forgeworld would of released an option without the carriage. To me it looks like one stable warmachine with a hook at the end....... Only one that looks like it's actually mounted on something is the dreadquake.

Bolg:

If you would remove it from the carriage you still can shoot over 95% of all Chaos dwarves.

All my (chaos)Dwarf warmachines can too and the are tiny. (except for my latest creation)

Chico:

I don’t think its cheating it anyway, its just how it comes. Now basing a old Death Rocket on a large platform on a base eg a bolder/stone just to get LOS advances is cheating.

Ender SpiteSworn:

I prefere to think of the Steam carriage as something even bigger, :wink: there has to be some purpose to it right? I would put them on this thing I made:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a46/EnderShadowKin/Chaos%20Dwarves/da52949f.jpg

if I ever played on a 10’ long game table and need to assault something around turn 6, lol.

They aren’t that tall anyway, and usually you are shooting over your own troops, which are short.

cornixt:

This is what happens when you create rules based on the models when there is so much encouragement to use non-standard models.

rpitts2004:

I prefere to think of the Steam carriage as something even bigger, ;)  there has to be some purpose to it right?  I would put them on this thing I made:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a46/EnderShadowKin/Chaos%20Dwarves/da52949f.jpg

if I ever played on a 10' long game table and need to assault something around turn 6, lol.

They aren't that tall anyway, and usually you are shooting over your own troops, which are short.

Ender SpiteSworn
+1