[Archive] Well, this is how� � *I'd* do it anyway

Thommy H:

Note: this thread is for the first version of my book, written originally for 7th Edition and now long since superseded. Please see here for the current version - Thommy H, 11 April 2012

Warhammer Armies: Chaos Dwarfs, that is.

Fans of my rules are in for a treat! Non-fans of my rules are not in for a treat! I’ve been mulling this project over for some time now, turning ideas over in my head, incorporating various influences and working out what it is I want to do. This is not my first rodeo: my first Chaos Dwarf list was essentially Ravening Hordes with a bunch of new units. I got pretty far with it (it had [stolen] artwork, and I was trying to put together the hobby section) before abandoning it altogether as a dead end.

What the Chaos Dwarfs needed was a new list altogether, with some new design concepts and some new crazy ideas! Some of you may remember conversations I’ve had in this very sub-forum about some of these crazy ideas: everyone wearing Chaos Armour, for example, and war machines that follow the monsters and handlers rules. These are just two of the mad things I’ve done here.

Anyway, I’m just going to attach this thing. It’s just a Word file right now, and it’s a stripped down version: no fluff, no artwork, just the special rules, army list, magic items and cough Daemonic Gifts (have fun with those…). So tell me what you think.

However, here’s a caveat: don’t come to me criticising the basic design decisions. There’s no point you saying, “hey, I think you should drop everyone having

Chaos armour!” or “I don’t think there should be any Hobgoblins at all!”. 100% of you will not like 100% of this list. This is my vision of Chaos Dwarfs - it will not match your vision, nor is it an attempt to. I’m not looking for a collaborative project. I’m not looking to create something that will be all things to all people.

Instead, imagine this is the long-awaited Warhammer Armies: Chaos Dwarfs that you just picked up in a GW store. It’s been published, it’s set in stone, you’re stuck with it: tell me what you think! Are there combinations that are broken? Are some things too expensive or too cheap? Are there some things you just don’t get at all? If this gets some discussion going, I’ll talk about some of the design decisions that went into it and just what I was thinking when I came up with some of the weirder aspects of the list. I may incorporate other people’s ideas and suggestions if I like them but, as I said, this isn’t a collaborative project, it’s just my vision made flesh.

So, here it is:

Grimstonefire:

I am not a fan of the compulsory shields on warriors, immortals or bull centaurs.

Immortals Magical attacks to Great weapon swap should be free.

Acolytes should be 10 pts, and seem far less attractive than immortals.

Are bull centaurs on 40mm bases? If they are not 55pts is too expensive.

Thommy H:

I am not a fan of the compulsory shields on warriors, immortals or bull centaurs.
Compulsory? Strange way of putting it. I see no particular reason to change it. Lots of troops in Warhammer have shields as part of their standard equipment.
Immortals Magical attacks to Great weapon swap should be free.
Great weapons are much better than magical attacks, particularly when Immortals are Strength 4. Compare Chaos Knights who can swap their magical attacks for lances at a cost rather than for free.
Acolytes should be 10 pts, and seem far less attractive than immortals.
They have the option to cause Fear, gain MR (2) or generate an extra power dice, remember.
Are bull centaurs on 40mm bases? If they are not 55pts is too expensive.
No, they're on cavalry bases (like Flesh Hounds, which also have two Wounds). Why would that make any difference to their points cost? Base size is an arbitrary distinction that isn't taken into account when determining points cost. If anything, a larger base would actually mean they should cost less because they could get less models into combat.

TwilightCo:

Aw c’mon! All I want to do is field an all Hobgoblin army!!! :mad

Well, I do. But otherwise it’s quite extensive and considering I haven’t fielded a WHFB army since the mid 90s, it’ll take some time to digest.

Needless to say, I appreciate the time you’ve put into it.

Thommy H:

In a theoretical future version of this list, there would be special characters, one of whom would be Gorduz Backstabber. One of his special rules would a) allow Hobgoblin units within 12" to use his Leadership and b) allow Hobgoblin Wolf Riders to be taken as Core units (proper ones that count towards the minimum).

Similarly, Zhatan would allow Immortals as Core and Astragoth would allow Acolytes.

AllEvil:

Absolutely love the list. Almost exactly what I would do with it, if I was given the chance.

It really captures the essense of what being a Chaos Dwarf is about - hard infantry, cheap slaves and a lot of big guns.

Aw c’mon! All I want to do is field an all Hobgoblin army!!! :mad

Well, I do. But otherwise it’s quite extensive and considering I haven’t fielded a WHFB army since the mid 90s, it’ll take some time to digest.

Needless to say, I appreciate the time you’ve put into it.

TwilightCo
Its doable. I once wrote up a hobgoblin army using the Dogs Of War list. I used the hobgoblin special character (cant remember his name), Oglah Khans Wolfboys, a lot of light cavalry and some duelists to act as sneaky gits.

Unfortunately, i never had the funds to make it a reality.

warh:

1.Why dont the sorcerer lord have a lammasu as mount?
2.Why can heros ride on a taurus?
3.Why have the core troops chaos armour?
4.Why no hobgoblins!?!?
5.Why no earthshaker?

Baggronor:

Typo on the Rampage rules page 1, ‘If the unit fails the test…’.

No missile weapon options for characters? I like pistols :slight_smile:

I would grumble about chaos armoured Core, but you’ve already heard this from me :slight_smile:

Magic standards for warriors and blunderbusses? Most other Core troops can’t have magic banners or can only take a 25pt banner. Perhaps limit the number of Core units that can have a magic banner? Although the Banners section seemed a bit empty (I like magic banners too :)).

I would have thought T5 and 3 wounds on the Lesser engine. 2W just seems a little easy to kill, even at T6.

No Bolt Throwers? Or other types of missile fire besides Stone Throwers? I would be disappointed by that :expressionless:

Does the ‘Colossal’ gift increase the Engine’s unit strength too? I assume it would become like a rank-breaker like the Hellcannon/Hydra?

Zhatan would allow Immortals as Core
Stubborn Core? With Bondage of Hashut? And Bodyguard? With a BSB… and all the Special and Rare slots free for Unbreakable Engines?! :o I think you would see a lot of Zhatan Stubborn-spam lists…

Its pretty cool though, I really like the Immortals, BCs and Acolytes rules and the customisable Daemon Engine concept is spot on :cheers

Thommy H:

Okay, I’ll reply in order. As a rule I hate posts that reply to every bit of someone else’s posts (too many bad flame war memories…), but this is probably acceptable.

1.Why dont the sorcerer lord have a lammasu as mount?

2.Why can heros ride on a taurus?

warh
I’ll answer these together: the Lammasu and the Great Taurus have gone, replaced by a generic “Taurus” which is a smaller, but customisable, creature. To create a Lammasu, you would give your Sorcerer Lord a Taurus, upgrade it to a Winged Taurus, and add the Colossal and two levels of the Spellbreaker gift. As part of the Daemonic Gifts idea, I wanted to extend it to mounts and get away from the idea of these two arbitrary (and very similar) monsters that Chaos Dwarfs have now. Instead, characters can ride all manner of crazy things, and you can build something like a Manticore or a Juggernaut for them if you want. That’s why the Tyrant and Sorcerer can ride them too: you can’t build such dangerous monsters as a Great Taurus and Lammasu with their limitations, but you can give them a pretty nasty mount instead.
3.Why have the core troops chaos armour?

warh
Because they do! One of my earliest design decisions was to include this to get some clear water between Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs. Since the new Warriors of Chaos book says that Chaos Dwarfs make the Chaos armour, and they forge it for all these thousands of Chaos Warriors, they must keep some for themselves. In real life, a nation doesn’t export things it doesn’t use itself - if a country grows lots of grain, it doesn’t sell it all and let it’s own people starve. So Chaos Dwarfs ought to have universal access to Chaos armour, I believe.
4.Why no hobgoblins!?!?

warh
There are Hobgoblins! You can take Wolf Riders as a Special choice and the generic Slaves unit can be used to represent them too. That’s actually the intention of the poisoned attacks upgrade - the fluff, when it’s written, will associate that with Hobgoblins so you can represent Sneaky Gitz.
5.Why no earthshaker?

warh
Again, like the Lammasu, this is something you have to build yourself using Daemonic Gifts. If you look at the Infernal Shells gift, it replicates (in a toned down form for balance reasons…) the Earthshaker ability. Give this upgrade to a Daemonic Engine and you have yourself an Earthshaker.
No missile weapon options for characters? I like pistols

Baggronor
Well, there are a couple of magic weapons (including a pistol). Really, I don’t know about this. Chaos Dwarfs have blunderbusses, obviously, but they don’t seem to “fit” other missile weapons. I just can’t really see a Tyrant or Warlord with a pistol. It sort of seems like they’re more “traditional” than their troops. I’ll think about it though.
Magic standards for warriors and blunderbusses? Most other Core troops can’t have magic banners or can only take a 25pt banner.

Baggronor
Yeah, this is an oversight. It should be 25 points. The magic items section is probably the weakest area of the whole thing, and I need to expand some of the categories to include some new and better ideas, especially the banners.
I would have thought T5 and 3 wounds on the Lesser engine. 2W just seems a little easy to kill, even at T6.

Baggronor
That’s more to do with the progression of the Daemonic Engine stats, but since I’ve actually made it so Lesser Engines can’t take the Colossal Gift anyway, I might tweak the stats a bit, yes.
No Bolt Throwers? Or other types of missile fire besides Stone Throwers? I would be disappointed by that

Baggronor


I just couldn’t think of a way to include Bolt Throwers after ditching so much of the Greenskin element of the list. Maybe a Chaos Dwarf version, actually? One idea I toyed with was a special “support weapon” rule, in which Core units could take a small war machine that would have to deploy next to them and could use their Leadership (like Skaven weapon teams). Warriors would allow a mortar, Blunderbusses a bazooka and Slaves a bolt thrower (albeit a lesser version, most likely). I decided it would be way too easy to go gunline with that option though. The concept is still floating around in my head though, so I might try to find a way to make it workable.
Does the ‘Colossal’ gift increase the Engine’s unit strength too? I assume it would become like a rank-breaker like the Hellcannon/Hydra?  

Baggronor
Yes, as monsters I thought their Unit Strength naturally rose with their Wounds? Although since it says their Unit Strength in their special rules, it may be that that’s not clear.
Stubborn Core? With Bondage of Hashut? And Bodyguard? With a BSB… and all the Special and Rare slots free for Unbreakable Engines?!

Baggronor
Yeah…I didn’t notice that. Interestingly, I didn’t realise how tough you could make Immortals until I started thinking about Special Character rules: I was going to do Rykarth the Unbreakable and, true to his name, I was thinking of giving him the option of making a unit of Immortals he joined Unbreakable. At first I thought this was way too powerful but, actually, with a character in the unit they’re only a hair away from Unbreakable anyway! As such, there’s no way they should ever be Core! I may drop that part of Zhatan altogether, or perhaps lose the Bodyguard rule since it makes them better than I wanted them to be.
Its pretty cool though, I really like the Immortals, BCs and Acolytes rules and the customisable Daemon Engine concept is spot on

Baggronor
Thanks! The Daemon Engine stuff is still probably my favourite part of the list. I like the possibility of running a monster list - with Ogres, Bull Centaurs and Tauruses too, you can make a very different kind of Chaos Dwarf army.

Grimstonefire:

>>compulsory shields on warriors, immortals or bull centaurs.  

I don’t object when they are armed with a hand weapon and have no choices, but the way you have done it is to include shields for all of these when they have the option for great weapons, and in the case of bull centaurs additional hand weapon as well.  Imo this makes them redundant and a waste of points for some people considering they already have chaos armour.  I personally would prefer the choice. Off the top of my head I can’t think of another unit in warhammer that has compulsory shields and the option for great weapons.

>>Immortals Magical attacks to Great weapon swap should be free.

Point taken, your version is ok.

>>Acolytes should be 10 pts, and seem far less attractive than immortals.

12 points/ model for a special choice that has no armour, no shield, only hand weapons…  I break down the cost thus:

Basic unarmoured DZ:  6 points

Hatred (general):  2 points

Dirges of Hashut… Magic Resistance (1)= 1  Power Dice (no idea, but say 2)  Fear = 3

Take a rough average of those and it comes out as 2 points

6+2+2 = 10pts/ model

They are less attractive than the immortals certainly, a round of shooting and they’d be half dead (possibly breaking).  I’d only be tempted to run a unit of 10 for fear.  Compared to your other special choices they are not really good at all.  They need a decent power boost, stubborn at the very least.

>>Are bull centaurs on 40mm bases?  If they are not 55pts is too expensive.

I’d like to see how you work out 55 points.  I make it about 28/ model. The base thing I was unsure whether you had treated them like ogres or not, which might have helped me understand why they were so expensive. :wink:

Thommy H:

Off the top of my head I can't think of another unit in warhammer that has compulsory shields and the option for great weapons.
Chaos Dwarf Warriors? ;) It's the same equipment layout they have in the Ravening Hordes list. Remember, you can still use shields against shooting attacks even if you have a great weapon (or two hand weapons for Bull Centaurs). It gives them an option to use hand weapon and shield too, if they want.
I rolled for fear.
You don't roll - you pick.

EDIT: Okay, you corrected that! Yes, they're not as good as Immortals: they're also not as expensive as them either! They would fit into a different build than Immortals, I think. For example, if you go magic heavy I think they'd be an attractive option because of the additional power dice. They'd also work well with a Petrified Sorcerer, which means they always outnumber (combine it with the Dirge of Battle...).
I'd like to see how you work out 55 points.  I make it about 28/ model.
28? For two Wound monsters with WS 5, three Attacks and Move 8 who are Immune to Psychology and cause Fear? They're at least as good as Chaos Knights, which cost 40 points.

Thommy H:

Forgive the double post, but I’ve made a couple of revisions:

- Immortals have lost the Bodyguard rule. I didn’t realise how it interacted with the Bondage of Hashut to produce a near-Unbereakable unit.

- Poisoned attacks for Slaves has dropped to 2 points (something I meant to do in the first version I posted but forgot).

- Lesser Daemonic Engines have Toughness 5 and 3 Wounds now.

- The Colossal Daemonic Gift makes it clear that it increases Unit Strength too.

- New unit! “Mortal Engines” are ordinary war machines with Slave crew that count as bolt throwers. They can be upgraded with a Chaos Dwarf overseer (so they have decent BS) and can also be upgraded to “Artillery”. Artillery counts as a light stone thrower (like a Halfling Hot Pot). This will allow veteran gamers to use their Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers as well as Mortars and Bazookas (they’re bolt throwers too!). They’re currently listed as up to two per Special choice, but I’m still debating that.

Also, apologies: I never thanked AllEvil for his kind words. I’m glad you like the list, AllEvil.

Baggronor:

I think removing the Bodyguard rule altogether is too much. Perhaps make it interact with a certain type of character? For example Hammerers have the Royal Blood rule, meaning they are immune to fear and terror if a Dwarf Lord joins them, thus making the Dwarf lord more worthwhile. Perhaps Immortals should have a similar rule regarding Sorcerer lords, to emphasise the status of sorcerers in CD society? How cool would it be to have a Sorcerer lord on palanquin in his bodyguard of Immortals :slight_smile: Almost Slann-esque.

Personally I thought the Bondage of Hashut rule would be the one to drop, rather than Bodyguard.

In the rules that I scribbled ages ago, I had Sorcerer Lords immune to poison due to their hardening skin :slight_smile:

Concerning the engines, how about the notion of them starting as melee monsters, a basic Str5 T6 Hydra-like unit, with the option of adding artillery options at the cost of melee stats. You could really go to town on the options, and I think it would cut out some of the confusion with gifts like the ‘Colossal’ upgrade. So for example taking an artillery option makes them ‘move or fire’ and they lose x amount of attacks, or you could give them nothing but a Breath Weapon and keep their stats maxed for a front line support Engine, or Impact hits and a -Ld penalty to enemies within 6" for a hammer Engine and so forth. Just my thoughts on it :slight_smile:

Thommy H:

I think I’d rather not make it an and/or proposition. If I go down that route, I might as well just have an option for “melee monster” and “artillery” - plus having too many wildly variant options just turns it into a unit creation exercise and that’s going to be really hard to balance. I’d rather follow the Hellcannon’s lead and have the Engines be primarily artillery, but with the option to use them as monsters. I think it’s more interesting to have monsters which don’t seem to be monsters. That’s what happened with the Hellcannon - it took people a bit of reading before it dawned on them that you could just charge it into stuff if you wanted to!

I do like some of your ideas for more Daemonic Gifts though. The list is still not exhaustive. Initially I just had the options to replicate the things that already exist for Chaos Dwarfs (stuff for a Great Taurus, stuff for a Lammasu, stuff for an Earthshaker, etc.) then I thought about it and added all the poisoned attacks and impact hits options. There’s still a lot more that could be done with it.

I’m unwilling to drop Bondage of Hashut, simply because (like Chaos armour) it was one of the main “new ideas” that got this list germinating in my mind. It’s a bit of a sacred cow (which is not good, to be honest…) but I like the idea of it - part of the concept I want to evoke is of Chaos Dwarf arrogance. It goes hand in hand with the whole attitude, my idea being that the thing that makes Chaos Dwarfs “Chaos” is their willingness to use Chaos for their own ends. They beat it into shape like regular Dwarfs do iron, and because they’re so resistant to mutation have no concern for the potential danger. Chaos Dwarfs just see themselves as better than everyone else. The rest of the Warhammer world runs from Daemons, but they hunt them down and put them in cannons! It’s not courage, it’s not even insanity: it’s just pure, unbridled arrogance that makes them immune to Panic. (Incidentally, this is why Bull Centaurs are immune to psychology too).

Grimstonefire:

I had another look at the bull centaurs and came to a bigger value, mainly because I have classed them as cavalry for everything.  It’s still less than your value though:

Basic Profile = 23

Movement 8 = 3

Weapon Skill 5 = 3

Strength 4 = 1

Toughness 4 = 1

Attacks 3 = 12

Leadership 9 = 3

Equipment = 8

4+ AS as cavalry = 6

Shield as cavalry = 2

Everything else = 9

Fear as cavalry = 6

Immune to Psychology = 2

Flaming attacks = 1

I think immune to flaming attacks is free

= 40 pts/ model

Regardless of how they compare to Chaos Knights, they should be costed fairly.  Charging them as cavalry is uncessary imo, but if that is the way you want to do it it’s up to you.

You could make that 44 and keep additional and great weapon as free (both 4 points).

>>compulsory shield

Okay, I can’t think of a unit with a 100% official armybook that has compulsory shields and great weapon option.

Thommy H:

Immune to psychology is worth a lot more than 2 points! You also don’t seem to have taken their two Wounds into account anywhere.

Grimstonefire:

Another attempt.  So many considerations

Basic Profile = 23

Movement 8 = 4

Weapon Skill 5 = 2

Ballistic skill = 0

Strength 4 = 4

Toughness 4 = 2

Wounds 2 = 1

Initiative 3 = 1

Attacks 3 = 4

Leadership 9 = 5

Equipment = 8

4+ AS as cavalry = 6

Shield as cavalry = 2

Everything else = 9

Fear as cavalry = 6

Immune to Psychology = 2

Flaming attacks = 1

I think immune to flaming attacks is free

= 40 pts/ model

So a slight correction, based on using centauroid rules for profile, and cavalry for everything else.

Immune to Psychology could be 3 points/ model actually, so I will amend my suggestion to 41pts/ model.  45 if you include additional and great weapons.

Thommy H:

1 point for 2 Wounds? Where are you getting that? 2 Wounds is worth more than the +1 Armour save than cavalry provides, and if we take +1 AS to be worth at least one point (should be more like two - the same you charge for a shield) then 2 Wounds must be worth at least three points, shouldn’t it?

Out of curiosity, why are you charging things “as cavalry”? They’re not cavalry: they just function a similar way, tactically. In game terms, they’re monsters with two Wounds.

Honestly though, using a formula is not always (or even often) a good way to work out points values. It works fairly well for infantry (when you can say “this is a human with heavy armour, therefore it should cost…” etc.) but once you get to Heroes and Monsters with multiple wounds and lots of special rules, it starts to fall down. You can use a formula to gauge a basic cost (which I did), but then you have to tweak a little bit and compare to similar things. My Bull Centaurs hit as hard as Chaos Knights with lances, run away less and are fractionally more survivable (3+ save with two Wounds is better than 1+ save with one Wound), so they should cost more. Add in the other bonuses like the flaming attacks and immune to flaming attacks and 15 points more feels about right. To me anyway.

Servius:

Things I really like:

Durges of Hashut

Bondage of Hashut

Character Mounts Idea… Very cool!

Fast Cavalry fix

Lower WS on Hobgoblins (Slaves)

Trample is cool

Addition of Ogres to the List.

Petrified Sorcerer is a great Idea.

Things Im on the fence about.

I dont know If I like the Daemonic Engines… I like the Idea of Customizing them but again I think that people may disagree with it… I dont know… I like it.

Things I dont Like.

Really just one… Relentless… I dont think Chaos Dwarfs should have this rule… It was put in to help the SLOW dwarf army out a bit vs flyers and to give them some flavors… I know the argument… personally I think that with Bull Centaurs and Fast Cav choices and Now ogres… They dont need it… I really think that the Blessing, Durges and Bondage make the list very flavorful…

I think that the points are pretty close… Really what people forget when making lists that its not all about numbers… and GW doesnt use some base checklist to make prices. its based on the army its in and just takes a decent developer to gauge what is right and a good solid playtest term.

Grats on the List… I think its probably the first one I have seen in a while that I consider worth my time to test out… I may even make an AB list for it.

Question on the Durges… Do they count like Magic lores for their choice (i.e. can I change it each game I play) or are they chosen when the army is built.

Thommy H:

Addition of Ogres to the List.

Servius
I'm glad someone mentioned this at last! It was one of those really weird ideas that popped into my head and then it was just set in stone as far as I was concerned. Ogres live right by the Chaos Dwarfs, they pass through the Chaos Dwarf empire and sometimes get hold of Chaos armour before they go and fight for the Warriors of Chaos, so how could Chaos Dwarfs not have access to them? It makes so much sense and there's something about how random it seems that appeals to me.
I dont know If I like the Daemonic Engines.. I like the Idea of Customizing them but again I think that people may disagree with it.. I dont know.. I like it.

Servius
I'm hoping the interest in being able to create all sorts of crazy contraptions will outweigh any misgivings people have about it. To me, it has a lot of appeal.
Really just one.. Relentless.. I dont think Chaos Dwarfs should have this rule.. It was put in to help the SLOW dwarf army out a bit vs flyers and to give them some flavors.. I know the argument.. personally I think that with Bull Centaurs and Fast Cav choices and Now ogres.. They dont need it.

Servius
You know, I hadn't even thought about it that way. I just threw it in without thinking because they're Dwarfs. It's a racial trait. You're right though that it's not necessary with the other options in this list. I might think about this. I can see losing Relentless, but I need to figure out a way to justify it in the background.
Grats on the List.. I think its probably the first one I have seen in a while that I consider worth my time to test out.. I may even make an AB list for it.

Servius
Thanks! I'd be interested to see what people actually come up with for it. I'm not that into list building (I just get my models and see how many points it is), so I haven't really tried to see what can be done with this army yet.