Perturabo:
I like the customisation idea for the engines and character mounts, unfortunately that’s all I can see of the list. For some reason I’m not getting any unit entries.
Servius:
Well Im working on it as we speak… will probably have it done today as you dont have any stupid crazy things going on as far as the kit. I did have the question on the durges… Its at the end of my previous post… I edited before i knew you replied.
Edit… Never Mind… Im blind as a bat LOL You may want to clarify how long those effects last… Im assuming until the start of the next CD magic Phase.
Servius:
I like the customisation idea for the engines and character mounts, unfortunately that's all I can see of the list. For some reason I'm not getting any unit entries.They are in tables.. make sure your reading it in MS word or another compatible program.. Wordpad wont open them correctly.
Perturabo
Thommy H:
Question on the Durges.. Do they count like Magic lores for their choice (i.e. can I change it each game I play) or are they chosen when the army is built.You can pick a different one each turn, actually! They go from magic phase to magic phase.
Servius
And yeah, you should open it in Word. I used text boxes to get the formatting right. It'd be better as a pdf, but I don't have the software to make one.
Thommy H:
Here’s the updated version of the list with a couple of changes and additions if you want to use it, Servius. It’s all WIP anyway, of course.
Servius:
Could you PM me an Unit Listing… Just the Names… for some reason they arent showing in Star office…
Grimstonefire:
I dispute the suggestion that GW does not use formulae to work out the base costs for things. They may use a small fiddle factor of a couple of points here and there, but most of it is based off a list. Within reason I can get close to many things using the spreadsheet I made, certainly close enough to be balanced for playtesting. All based off this site:
http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/rules/design_creature.php#chum
@Thommy
Cavalry pay more for armour of all types, and some other things are dependant on the movement of the troop type. You were basing the comparison on Chaos Knights, so I assumed that you were treating them similar in points allocation.
If you were curious:
Chaos Knight = 19 (Chaos Warrior +2 for S +2 for Toughness)
Mounted 4+ AS = 2 (based on chaos warrior +2)
Barding = 3
Shield = 2 (Infantry = 1)
Chaos Steed = 6
Fear = 6
Will of Gods = 1
Magical Attacks = 1
= 40pts/ model
So using my previous calculation, if you are treating them as fast infantry in your list:
35pts/ model. 39 if you include additional and great weapons.
Thommy H:
I use Avian’s stuff too - try running Bull Centaurs through the Create a Small Monster chart and tell me they’re too expensive… My price is much closer to yours than the formula says they should be!
Servius:
Funny Grim, Your disputing the word of the GW Developer Team themselves, as they have said in multiple articles in WD as well as at games days that they use no such formulas or structured set of points rules… Its done by relative balancing during playtests… The Playtest Chaos Knights were originally 35 points then they were raised to more… Same goes for blood knights that originally were 40…
Perturabo:
That would be why then. Believe it or not this computer doesn’t even have Word.
Grimstonefire:
Try the centauroid one instead ;) More appropriate I think.
It does come out at 35 from my reckoning with all the special rules.
I don’t dispute that they use playtesting to amend existing things, but I doubt they create whole new armies etc without using something like this. It would save a huge amount of time and effort.
Servius:
Im just going by what they said…
Thommy: In the Rampage Rule theres a Glitch… this is the original though so bear with me… It said if you Fail it may act as normal but if it fails it much move…
Also on the Engines… It states they are monsters and handlers… Are they still considered Machines though or Monsters (this is for Marching purposes… as a Machine may not march but a Monster can… And if its a monster you going to have 12" MV dwarfs… Thought I would bring it up.)
On Bull Centaurs… It would make more sense to just give them one of the 2 options base and let them replace with the other for free.
On Petrified Sorcerer… Im Assuming that It should only be available to be carried by a unit of Chaos Dwarfs first of all, Also I would assume they it too should be considered Relentless and Resolute. If it isnt then essentually it would negate the Resolute rule being as he could be marchblocked by enemy units.
Blooddrinker seems to be a little hokey to me… in that its justs droning… Hit, Wound, Save, Hit, Wound, Save, Hit, Wound, Save, Rather rinse repeat. I would just make it where for each wound dealt the wielder gains another attack, continue until no more wounds are inflicted. then have the opponent roll saves… I would probably make it 70 points at that point… Also… The Daemon Flayer seems pretty much a one trick pony for a 70 point item… I think that it would be better at 50 points… Red Fury isnt as complicated as this as you only get the new attacks once…
I also assume that the Scourge of Gorgoth should read something like… Wielder never needs worse than a 4+ to Wound. Flaming Attacks not Always wounds on a 4+.
Obsidian Shield… It would make more sense to be to make it. Whenever a wound from a magic weapon is saved by the shield on a 4+ that weapon is destroyed.
Daemon Stone… It looks like its supposed to be done on the models unmodified leadership. Is this correct?
Daemonic Sceptre… When exactly is it used… Currently I could use it at anytime even in my opponents turn. Also it says take a fear test as if it had been charged by a fear causer… What Unit Strength do we use… as if your charged by a fear causer with the same or less Unit strength you would only need 6s to hit them in combat… It would make more sense to make it a Panic test. Clarify that its as if the unit were charged by a fear causing unit of greater unit strength.
It would whole make more sence to be worded as such…
One use only, Target unit within 24" take 2D6 Strength 4 hits, no line of sight required, distributed as per shooting. Additionally the Unit must make an immediate fear test as if it had been charged by a Fear Causing enemy with greater unit strength.
Also. Should this be a bound item? or just an effect… I would say if its a bound make it a Bound Level 5, and change one use only to one Successful use only. (im not sure if they ever fixed that problem with one time use bounds)
Servius:
Black Gem of Gnar… Need rewording… The Beginning of the Close Combat happens before Challenges are given… It should say Use after challenges have been issued and responded to but before attacks are rolled.
Daemonic Phylactery is a horrible item… Expecially for the points… being that the heros have 3 attacks… when you kill 3 models that would be 3 chances to take a wound… And for its potential bonus its just not worth it… Maybe for 10 points… but not 35. Just my opinion…
Rod of Binding seems very expensive for an item that only effect one army and targets a statistic that they have decent values in… Maybe taking the test at a -1 would make it more viable at that points.
Daemonic Thrall… Cool item. needs some clearing… do you declare which spell is the thrall spell when generating spells or do they lose a random spell if he escapes.
The Gifts really need Clarification… Some Imply that they only work on Taurus but have no noted restrictions…
Thommy H:
Try the centauroid one insteadExcept the Centauroid one only allows for one Wound...
Grimstonefire
Seriously, two Wounds makes all the difference, Grim. You're trying to build them as a one Wound creature then add a flat cost for a second Wound, but that doesn't work because the cost of upgrades scales up with Wounds. Think of how much characters pay for weapons compared to troops.
Ultimatley, they just can't be worth 35 points no matter what formula you use because they're better than Chaos Knights which cost 40 points. You can run it through as many permutations as you want, but if they're better than something that GW costs at 40 points, then they have to be worth that much at the very least.
In the Rampage Rule theres a Glitch.. this is the original though so bear with me.. It said if you Fail it may act as normal but if it fails it much move......Corrected in the new verison.
Servius
It states they are monsters and handlers... Are they still considered Machines though or Monsters (this is for Marching purposes.. as a Machine may not march but a Monster can.. And if its a monster you going to have 12" MV dwarfs.. Thought I would bring it up.)They count as monsters and handlers, with all that that entails. This follows the precedent set by the Hellcannon.
Servius
It would make more sense to just give them one of the 2 options base and let them replace with the other for freeEither way is valid, really. There's precedent for both in the new format.
Servius
Im Assuming that It should only be available to be carried by a unit of Chaos Dwarfs first of all, Also I would assume they it too should be considered Relentless and Resolute. If it isnt then essentually it would negate the Resolute rule being as he could be marchblocked by enemy units.Yes, it should follow any movement rules for the unit carrying it too. I'll make sure to put that in. I didn't want to make it Relentless and Reoslute though because technically you can give it to a unit of Slaves if you want (but it will slow them down).
Servius
Blooddrinker seems to be a little hokey to me.. in that its justs droning.. Hit, Wound, Save, Hit, Wound, Save, Hit, Wound, Save, Rather rinse repeat. I would just make it where for each wound dealt the wielder gains another attack, continue until no more wounds are inflictedLike you say, that would make it better. I didn't want it to be the same thing as several other abilities in the game either.
Servius
I also assume that the Scourge of Gorgoth should read something like... Wielder never needs worse than a 4+ to Wound. Flaming Attacks not Always wounds on a 4+.No, it wounds on a 4+. The wielder's Strength is irrelevant. It's a double-edged sword in that regard.
Servius
It would make more sense to be to make it. Whenever a wound from a magic weapon is saved by the shield on a 4+ that weapon is destroyed.Except there's no such thing as being "saved by the shield". You either make the armour save or you don't, so I might change it to "if you hit and save, it's destroyed".
Servius
It looks like its supposed to be done on the models unmodified leadership. Is this correct?Why would it be modified?
Servius
Currently I could use it at anytime even in my opponents turn. Also it says take a fear test as if it had been charged by a fear causer.. What Unit Strength do we use.. as if your charged by a fear causer with the same or less Unit strength you would only need 6s to hit them in combat.. It would make more sense to make it a Panic test. Clarify that its as if the unit were charged by a fear causing unit of greater unit strength.Yes, that's an oversight. It was written for an older list and I wasn't totally familiar with the Fear rules at the time. This will be corrected and clarified.
Servius
Daemonic Phylactery is a horrible item.. Expecially for the points.. being that the heros have 3 attacks.. when you kill 3 models that would be 3 chances to take a wound.. And for its potential bonus its just not worth it.. Maybe for 10 points.. but not 35. Just my opinion..Yeah, it does seem to be punishing the user for being succesful. I need to figure out a new way of it rebelling against the wearer.
servius
Rod of Binding seems very expensive for an item that only effect one army and targets a statistic that they have decent values in.. Maybe taking the test at a -1 would make it more viable at that points.I may come up with a secondary use for it, like the Daemonflayer.
Servius
Daemonic Thrall.. Cool item. needs some clearing.. do you declare which spell is the thrall spell when generating spells or do they lose a random spell if he escapes.No and no. You just lose the other abilities it grants.
Servius
The Gifts really need Clarification... Some Imply that they only work on Taurus but have no noted restrictions..Which ones? If there's no restrictions, there's no restrictions. If it can only be used by a Taurus, the fluff description usually just says "the Taurus...". There shouldn't be any implying anywhere.
Servius
Servius:
Engine - Got it. Im still rather at ends with the Hellcannon for the same reason…
Petrified Sorcerer - That can easilly just be put in the rules for the Thing.
Obsidian Shield - Thats what i meant. But I believe its been explained with similar effect that way… I.E. you wouldnt get the effect if your wielding a Greatweapon as you wouldnt be using the shield at the time.
Daemon Stone - You say to take the test before the game starts… but that would be after deployment. If I have it on say a Level 2 mage and he is within 12" of the LD 10 general I could take it on his leadership…
Scepter - For the moment I have it to cause a fear test as if charged by a fear causer with greater unit strength… Also When It happens is quite important…
Blooddrinker - Your current rules is just endless Red Fury… Which is just droning. Your list… im just trying to give suggestions.
Thrall: So he isnt like a familiar, ok. It seems odd that he gets a free spell even know the reason he had it is now gone… But again your list. and im not complaining.
Gifts - They are fine… The tables in Staroffice are all jumbled around… and it looked at the beginning that the characters also could take gifts. LOL. The new file isnt a badly jumbled in write so i caught it… Im pretty much done with the list pending some tweaks and such.
Thommy H:
Honestly, the magic items are the weakest thing. I hated doing them, I cribbed ideas from an old list and most of the points values are rough estimates. If anything is going to be totally overhauled and done from scratch it’ll be that. I can’t even defend most of the decisions that went into their rules, because they’re just not that good! I have to sit down and look them over at some point.
In fact, if there’s anything I actually would welcome help and suggestions on, it would be the magic items section. For some reason I get a huge mental block when I try to come up with ideas for magic items.
Servius:
I will ask one question… Anyway of doing the Daemonsmith more like Dwarf Engineers… I.E. just adding a model vs upgrading one. AB is a horrid program for some things… Alot of the Items are pretty cool… Personally my fav combo at the moment is Black Plate on a Baneguard in a large unit of Immortals… I think that we could use 2 more banners… one in the 30-40 range and one the 40-50 range. Arcane is pretty weak on choices as well… I would love to see something that maybe allowed you to expel a another random wizards magic pool… Could be brutal but also has a chance to come back on you if you take multiple casters.
Thommy H:
I went with upgrade because I was quite keen to keep the Lesser Daemon Engine crew down to two (so there’s a clear difference between the two Engines on the battlefield). There’s no reason it can’t change, but I probably won’t alter it for the sake of Army Builder!
I’m going to review the whole magic item section tonight anyway and try to make some of the weirder ones work a bit better. Expect more banners and stuff.
I’m also putting Bodyguard back in, but changing it to apply to Sorcerers only. This will work better because only the Sorcerer Lord has Bondage of Hashut, so to get nigh-Unbreakable Immortals you need to be playing a 2,000+ point battle and sink a lot of points into an expensive character. It also work better than way thematically - I actually forgot that the Palanquin mount is supposed to be being carried by Immortals anyway (hence WS5 magical attacks).
Servius:
I have the base done. Ill keep looking for updates… just dont remove Black Plate… Im in love with that little item.
Baggronor:
I'm also putting Bodyguard back in, but changing it to apply to Sorcerers only.I think thats better overall :) it reflects CD culture and says who the Immortals are.
I think playtesting would help yield some stronger ideas for magic items.
Hellfire Pistol, for example, is a great idea, but I wouldn't pay 25pts for 1 shot. A Str 5 flaming repeater pistol on the other hand :) Come here mister Treeman.
I think some general ideas about what kind of items CDs make would help (Skull Helm is awesome). How about a banner that gives the Sorcerers Curse to a unit, giving them +1 armour save and immunity to poison but -1 initiative? (Immortals only of course, can't have any 1+ save Core units running around :)).
Banner of Slavery?
A binding orb that sucks in the souls of its wielders victims, ready to be released as a breath weapon or extra magic dice or something. It could do something extra special if the wielder slays a Daemon :)
Some kind of ancient Slaver item that absolutely scares the living s**t out of greenskins?
A Mega-Blunderbuss! Yes, I won't be happy until I see CD characters with guns... :)
And I've only just realised but, no Black Orcs? They even popped up in 'Knight of the Realm'... Although I can see how they would need a new role, with Immortals taking up the mantle of Elites.
I also think maybe the Daemonsmith should have been a hero choice, or at least there should have been a Hero version. Daemon-binding is a really cool aspect of CDs, and anti-Daemon abilities would add another layer to the army. Cause fear against Daemons would be pretty funny...