Hashut’s Blessing:
Thanks. There’s some slaves in it for you if you manage to 
Filipicusius:
HAAAAAAATREEEEED!!! INFINITE HAAAATREEEEED!!!
Gar Shadowfame:
WFRP £ ed looks crap, its a downgrade, as soon as RPG became popular with mases the narration disappears, DnD was never an ambitious project, flat and singleminded but latest dnn was realy bad with oversimplified mechanics, new warhammer sucks, 2end edition was wel balanced but sometimes lacking 1st ed feel, new one is like computer game without computer. I hope that market will make rpg publishers change their ways, if not demanding players will stick to titles 10-15 years old.
slev:
I saw the set in my FLGS yesterday.
I don’t put any significant value on the cards or dice, those to me are player aids and not necessary (or else you’re doing it wrong). No way is there £60 worth of books there. Three thin soft-backs (full colour which is, again, something I don’t value). I’d say they where worth £25 at most.
Hashut’s Blessing:
£25 at most being a generous offer on your part, I presume?
slev:
Generous? No.
However, given the pricing of RPG books in general (ignoring AD&D, since they come in absurdly cheap), this would be around the right price.
If they’s done them as a single HBB for £30-£35, it’d still be a fair price.
GRNDL:
Wow, some serious hate here for peeps who haven’t seen, read or played it.
I have a copy of “3rd Ed” WFRP and I like the ideas in it. I think that if you take the time to get used to some of the concepts in there, you can get a rich procedural RPG experience out of it. Speaking as both a D&D and WFRP grognard who prefers the first editions of both systems, I tend to throw out a lot of the rules in order to keep narrative going and that has become rather hard to do with D&D 4e, since they are very closely knit together. Same goes for WFRP - it has been designed for a specific experience and I think it does rather well in that capacity, but its not so easy to drop stuff as you wish.
re: cost
I paid $90 or so for my copy and it comes with 4 books, 2 sets of dice and what everyone seems to be missing: the board. The “board” is really a stat tracking system - character cards, action cards, tokens for combat representation and so on. It is very high quality, as most FFG boards and gaming materials are, and that’s where the money is going, IMO.
The new edition of WFRP is designed for all players to get into the experience quickly and easily with minimal fuss, so if you’re used to what you’re playing and aren’t open to new ideas, then its not for you.
nitroglysarine:
played wfrp 1 & 2 to death. anyone played it yet?
Hashut’s Blessing:
GRNDL: I’m not completely knocking it without trying it, but it from what I’ve read of it, it’s starting to sound more and more like Star Wrs Roleplaying (WHFRP2) and Star Wars Miniatures Battles (WHFRP3) in that it focuses a lot around combat and uses cards with a few stats on. Not necessarily a problem, even if it only focuses on combat a little more than in WHFRP2, but I find that with all of the cards etc, it tends to make me feel more like I’m playing a wargame on a singular scale with experience, so something like Inquistor or a one model warband for Mordheim.
On top of which, everyone that I’ve seen make a reply after having played it, seems to say that they like the ideas or concepts etc, but I don’t think I’ve yet seen anyone explicitly state: I like this. In which case, if it’s the cards and tracking systems etc that everyone seems to like the idea of more, I’d be prepared to create some for my own group. It’s good to have streamlined it like this, but I think it sounds like they;ve removed far too much of the character development side of the game.
Ultimately, I won’t buy it because I don’t have the £60 or whatever to spend on something I already have, that sounds like it fits my style of playing better. Sorry FFG.
On a positive side to it, the pieces do all look to be of very good quality and I too “like the idea” of the dice giving you ideas of why things went wrong when they do, but it’s less complicated to simply think “it went this bad” and then come up with a suitable idea yourself: it’ll add variety.
slev:
GRNDL: I’m not saying I hate it. What I’m saying is it doesn’t appear to be what I look for in an RPG.
The beauty of an RPG is that you only need the books (and only for occasional reference once you’ve learnt), a few bits of paper and some dice. In my house, we RP sat around the lounge, rather than around a table, as it was more comfortable. Dice rolls are only occasional with WFRP, and you never needed many dice.
WFRP3 also has all these summaries, cards, boards and other such. Not very conducive to play unless you’re sat around the table, and a lot of pieces to easily loose.I always classed such items as PLAY AIDS, which should by their nature be optional. You should also be able to play the whole core game with as many players as you like from the basic rule book with a full basic background, and in this respect the game is woefully lacking from what I saw.
I’m also reliably informed about several glaring background errors such as the monetary system of the Empire being changed AGAIN, and the established Old Worl calender being completly re-written for no adequately explored reason.
I’m willing to be convinced I’m wrong about what I see, but £60 is a LOT of money right now.
The owner of my FLGS also expressed reservations on the product. It appeared too gamy and too high a buy-in cost for most RPG fans, and too PRG-ish for the boardgamers. This is, in effect, a hybrid product that doesn’t really appeal all that well to either market. Within a week of the release of WFRP2, there where a dozen campaigns running in the back room of our FLGS each week. As of yet, two weeks after release, not even one is being organised. This says something about the impact of the product.
FWIW, I own a LOT of FFG products, including the entirety of the Descent and Runebound lines, plus Twilight Imperium, LotR, and a few others. I appreciate the high quality and fun nature of their boardgames.
And without further ado, the complete WFRP2 book list:
Main Rule Book
Character Pack
GM’s Screen
GM’s Toolkit
Realms of Scorcery
Tome of Salvation
Tome of Corruption
WFRP Companion
Old World Armoury
Old World Bestiary
Career Compendium*
Character Portfolio
Sigmar’s Heirs
Knights of the Grail
Renegade Crowns
Realm of the Ice Queen
Night’s Dark Masters
Children of the Horned Rat*
Shades of Empire*
Paths of the Damned part I: Ashes of Middenheim
Paths of the Damned part II: Spires of Altdorf
Paths of the Damned part II: Forges of Nuln*
Karak Azgal
Barrony of the Damned
Lure of the Litch Lord
Terror in Talebheim*
The Thousand Thrones
Gar Shadowfame:
The new edition of WFRP is designed for all players to get into the experience quickly and easily with minimal fuss, so if you're used to what you're playing and aren't open to new ideas, then its not for you.I will translate,
"if you are expecting something with depth in it, with not oversimplified content then dont buy DND and WHRP 3ed"
if new ideas are weak, flat, and common, then those aint so new.
Hashut’s Blessing:
slev, thanks a LOT for the list. What are the ones marked with an asterisk for?
GRNDL:
That's not it at all. The system is an attempt to take all the bonuses and negatives into a common system that allows for randomness and player agency, while keeping things moving. It is innovative and different from the 30+ RPG systems I've played, so I doubt everyone could get into it, if they're used to regular polyhedral dice. (ie, with numbers)The new edition of WFRP is designed for all players to get into the experience quickly and easily with minimal fuss, so if you're used to what you're playing and aren't open to new ideas, then its not for you.I will translate,
"if you are expecting something with depth in it, with not oversimplified content then dont buy DND and WHRP 3ed"
if new ideas are weak, flat, and common, then those aint so new.
Gar Shadowfame
Adding to this, the system has been designed minimize book keeping and table lookup. The cards and tracking system could be maintained on a char sheet, but I think it would be easier using the game materials in the box.
As for models and minis, I was surprised to see that the system favours abstract combat rather than the meticulously detailed D&D 4e minis on a grid approach. Only ranges and relative positions are tracked for the purposes of mods: ie: dwarf is 2 tokens away from troll, with a token being representative of a set range. I'm not sure how this works out in play, but its closer to how I ran games before 4e came along, and reminds me of the old Traveller days (before Snapshot and AHL.)
I've only read through the common rulebook so far, so there's another 3 books to get through. So far, I'm pleasantly surprised by it.
slev:
HB: NP. The asterisks mark the few I still need to track down & buy!
Well, I trawled the internet for reviews & information on WFRP3 last night, it’s as bad as I feared.
Now, it is said that the dice-pool mechanic is great and quite intuative. Having played a lot of Descent, I can understand that, it’s a big pain in the rear though, using custom dice for an RPG, but if that was the only drawback, I’d be more willing to look at it.
The cards basically replace the book-based information. Instead of having, for example, a list of spells, you have the spells on cards. This is much like they used to do for AD&D 2nd ed, but they where available IN ADDITION to the books. WFRP3 has only the cards, no other reference. Similar things apply to all the mechanics represented by cards.
Effectively, you could play this as a traditional RPG with funky dice, but would have to transcribe all the cards into book format first. Similarly, the character sheet is basic, as you’re meant to put this and the cards in a little box, and these things combined limit the number of players.
Now, given the complaints, I can’t help but feel that the better business model would be to sell the complete rule books so you don’t need the cards, then sell the cards separately as play-aids. This would be close enough to a traditional RPG not to alienate people, and would allow those of us who’s play-styles don’t suit the cards to not used them.
Oh well.
Hashut’s Blessing:
If you don’t mind them in PDF format, you buy buy them (legally) online. I dn’t have the links to hand, but when I’m on my laptop, I’ll let you kno.
As for your comments on it: I agree that I would be more inclined (note: only more inclined, not a ceratinty) to buy it, if they sold the books and the aids separately. It’s entirely possible that they shall start to do this to allow people to expand their number of cards for more players. I just realised the problem with that notion: they could only do it with the cards. They can;t really sell the books separately because they don’t have most of the information in.
In fact, that brins up a rather interesting point: there are four rulebooks, but they don’t have the vast majority of rules in, just how to use them. That is certainly new idea, to my knowledge, but I have a feeling that there’s a reason why. If I did become a millionaire and not mind splashign out £60, I might consider buying this to see some of what it was like in person and to see if there is any new information to be glened from its pages, but I’d also compile a list of all of the stats and statuses and effects and whatnot. If I lost or damaged cards beyond use (through accident, of course), then I’d still be able to access the information, but it would be tedious to have to do it yourself. In my opinion, the ability to lose the cards and not have a back-up already in place is a huge put-off in terms of would I buy this.
GRNDL:
Remember that its a starter kit and not the whole shebang. It contains the stuff to learn the system and get started, not for long term play. That being said, we’ll have to see where FFG takes it, both as a game and a product. I can see them trying to sell more stuff, so keeping the info as cards idea, rather than compiling them into books, but we’ll have to see. Its too early yet, I think.
slev:
Remember that its a starter kit and not the whole shebang. It contains the stuff to learn the system and get started, not for long term play. That being said, we'll have to see where FFG takes it, both as a game and a product. I can see them trying to sell more stuff, so keeping the info as cards idea, rather than compiling them into books, but we'll have to see. Its too early yet, I think.That's the other part of the problem, it's an expensive and incomplete core set.
GRNDL
When I bought WFRP 1st ed, I'd had everything I need to run everything from the get go, although the magic system may be a bit thin on the ground. This costed £60 (adjusted).
WFRP 2nd edition, I needed the MRB, OWB, and that's it. This costed a little less than £60 (adjusted).
If I'm paying £60 for an RPG, I bloody-well expect it to be complete.
Incidentally, since it's generally cheaper to print a book than a boxed set with cards and the like, presenting the same thing in a more traditional format would actually have brought the cost down and allowed all the basic stuff in the same basic set, rather than splitting it up.
Perversely, if they'd done it this way, I'd likely have been interested in the cards an an option myself.
Willmark:
I’m with the nay sayers, sorry I dont need to actually buy 4th edition D&D to understand that it sucks big, hairy, donkey balls. I’ve skimmed it multiple times and its no sale.
1st & 2nd edition D&D here as well GRNDL as well as 1st & 2nd edition WFRP.
These latest editions seem to be a race to create a MMORPG on the tabletop; if I wanted taht I’d play a MMORPG.
slev:
Willmark: apparently, WFRP is NOT like that in mechanic, simply in presentation. That’s my point, they’ve done what we want, but presented it as what we don’t.
It’s like taking a pretty girl and giving her a “makover” to make her look ugly.
Willmark:
Color me unimpressed then. WFRP Players were asking foe certain parts of 1st to be fixed since the 1980. Then they finally created 2nd which kicks ass IMHO, then they follow up with 3rd so doon after? WTH?