AGPO:
Post your vote and the reasons for it here. Discuss!
richard barby:
Post your vote and the reasons for it here. Discuss!till an ironed out choas dwarf list comes out RH or gt indy list they do
AGPO
tomb kings getting locked in combat and having maybe less magic dice to throw at things i dont think there going to be able to hit blocks any more if the block counts as stuborn there chariots will get worn down quickly
Loki:
I would say undead lose out a fair amount in the new rules, with the miss cast table being so bad if you lord rolls that double 6 he stands a very good chance of blowing his head of and most of the unit he is with at the same time, and also with out numbering by a fear causing enemy no longer being double 1 to hold it means your not going to be running down as many units as you once where, the good thing is those units of horde zombies are going to be a lot of fun to play with 
Baggronor:
I’m actually going to say Daemons. Controversial I know, and I might be wrong, but lets see:
It is now compulsory for them to field a fair few points in block infantry. Their infantry is expensive and not very resilient (apart from Plaguebearers, who don’t kill much) and relied on killing everyone in contact in 7th. In 8th, they will face a lot of attacks back, and T3 with a 5+ ward is not significantly better than the average (T3 with light armour and shield). Point for point, I think their infantry just took a big hit. Regen and ward saves also no longer stack, so Nurgle troops’ resilience is also not what it was. And as long as the Daemons’ enemies have more ranks (very likely) they won’t run like they used to, which means longer combats and more casualties for the Daemons.
Their strike units, like Flesh Hounds, can no longer plough happily through ranked blocks; they will evaporate in the face of multiple ranks of return attacks and static bonus, not to mention the more concentrated missile fire.
Greater Daemons also face the same problems. They will eat a lot of attacks back, and though they will shrug most of it off, everything counts in large amounts; everything wounds on a 6 in 8th too, which means even spells that do Str 1 hits, Skinks and even Zombies can all wound them on 6s now. They also face harsh limits on their Gifts in 2000pt games. They do get Thunderous Stomp however, but regardless, they won’t be breaking units reliably due to steadfast.
I’m not saying that DoC are weak now, just that their days of lording it are over; relatively speaking, I think they have taken a giant hit 
Other armies that suffer are Tomb Kings (they were weak anyway, hopefully a new book is on the horizon) and WEs. But who cares about WEs 
Many people say VCs are getting a massive nerf; I am not convinced. The balance has shifted, but VCs are still very powerful imo:
Take Necromancers; they used to be meh; now they are awesome. They can buy up to 3 recastable spells (and thus not deprive other VC casters) despite being a level 1, are dirt cheap, and can throw 6 dice at a spell now. Plus, there are no more slots to worry about; I would expect Necromancers to spring up all over the place. They will be doing the important castings (lets face it, you only need Invocation and VanHel’s really) while the Lords switch to kicking butt or other Lores (which are admittedly more risky to an extent).
Grave Guard will likely be the mainstay unit now more than ever, 2 ranks of Killing Blow with Banner of the Barrows and Helm of Commandment hurts. Spear skellies and Ghoul hordes will fill up the core. Anyone who deploys Zombies in a horde formation has misunderstood their uses, despite the fact the unit name is actually Zombie Horde
And multiple Wight Kings will likely be doing the fighting in place of the Vampire Heroes; cheap, tough, reliable and expendable.
Nazhur:
Tomb king for me. Seems they gained nothing but lost a lot. Daemons got a hit too but they are still pretty good so they are not number one for me.
Swissdictator:
@Baggronor: I hope you’re right, the deadlier combats make crumble worse, and magic might be less reliable. Thought I completely agree with you on Necromancers, and Wight Kings. Necromancers will easily be the workhorse of VC again in 8th edition. You were spot on with that I believe.
I used to run a dual GG list with roughly 7-8 PD. It worked fairly well. With invocation technically easier on GG, though a bit risky to be spammed (thus you do it with Necros) it could work very well. Though Skeletons, let alone zombies, are more fragile now. So Grave Guard are almost a must, as they have the durability to survive combats and can dish it out.
As to the original post?
DoW and CD aside (though I think with the new items, and some other changes, CD benefit quite a bit) I think the three taking the worst hits are Daemons, Vampires, and Wood Elves.
Daemons I still see being effective, as long as you didn’t rely on the nasty God mixes (IE: Plaguebearer blocks, flesh hound specials, and flamer rarers). Slaanesh and, I’d even say Khorne, Daemons are a bit better. Khorne Daemons, now with a potential for more than 2 Dispelll Dice, combined with the anti-magic banner might do fine. Though with the changes in fear, it’s nowhere near as brutal as before. Nurgle Daemons, while much weaker, still have some options… they might rely on magic a bit more though.
Wood Elves, I’m thinking really took a hit. While I think they were a good army, they really were not top tier the last few years. I think they required a competent general too. Even though I will never play Wood Elves (and I love defeating them), I hope I am over estimating the hit they took, or the FAQ softens the hit for them. As much as I love ‘hating’ (in a more fun, not very serious sense)… I want them to be competitive, it makes defeating them far more satisfying.
VC, if I suspect some things, could have it pretty rough outside a couple builds. Which I always think is a bad thing. Variety of builds show work. Plus have the fun of VC is the necromancy, which may take quite a hit. I set aside VC as I though the new book was a bit too powerful (at least the lists I designed and liked were), and now I fear they could be too weak. Though having a brutal, durable, main GG unit isn’t as bad now.
Baggronor:
Thought I completely agree with you on Necromancers, and Wight Kings.Not entirely surprising as I got some of that from your post on CN lol :) The Necromancer boosts hadn't fully occurred to me until I read it.
snowblizz:
Wood Elves, I'm thinking really took a hit. While I think they were a good army, they really were not top tier the last few years. I think they required a competent general too. Even though I will never play Wood Elves (and I love defeating them), I hope I am over estimating the hit they took, or the FAQ softens the hit for them. As much as I love 'hating' (in a more fun, not very serious sense)... I want them to be competitive, it makes defeating them far more satisfying.I agree with you for the most part. And especially this. For the very same reason you state.
Swissdictator
I don't see the majority of current WE builds standing up to the 11+ return attacks they are going to be receiving when they go into combat.
Having lost the edge in manoeuvring, and had that aspect generally vanish anyway will hurt them. Hitting a unit with multiple units and breaking it in one go is pretty much gone. And WE will not win grinds.
WE shooting got more interesting, probably the only area they gained some, but I'm not sure it will be enough. Definitely not an army made for 8th edition play.
AGPO:
Daemons took a real hammering. I have a gut feeling that the Damon Prince is about to become a lot more useful though - in 2,000pts you can take one and still give it a relatively good quantity of kit. Greater Daemons have realistically been pushed back to 3,000pts games and larger. I think they’ll probablly sort the regen/ward issue for Nurgle in the FAQ as it’s a large part of the Nurgle side of the list and they don’t get the triple stack on top of armour.
Horde units of lesser daemons led by heralds for the locus bonus are the way forward. I’m going to be fielding 35 Plaguebearers led by Epidemius and a herald with Slime Trail which should still be pretty sick - 26 poisoned attacks, plus the Herald, Epidemius and his Palanquin, no flanks and all the bonuses of Epidimius. Don’t forget after eight casualties caused by Nurgle daemons your poisoned attacks now wound on a 4+, so give them the icon of eternal virulence (wounds caused by poison count double for CR) and you’re stacking up some serious hurt. Then there’s a horde of Bloodletters plus Herald - 40 attacks (not including the herald) with killing blow and hatred. A horde of Daemonettes plus herald - 40 ASF armour piercing attacks (again not including the herald). The best is to come with horrors - field them in a nice big unit led by a herald and the Changling and give them the icon of sorcerey - Not only will you get the original level two caster with the herald, but a level four sorcerer in thehorrors which has a 4+ ward save, 30 CC attacks, maxed out static CR and with the banner of sorcery gets a whopping +5 to cast. Daemon infantry blocks seem pretty sweet from where I’m sitting. Flesh Hounds and seekers are now awesome flanking units, especially since with the changes to frenzy the Hounds are much harder to misdirect.
Wood Elves loose out hugely because of their limited number of units with static CR and the changes to march blocking. It’s a real shame because in the space of a few months the two armies which played completely differently to others (Wood Elves and Beasts of Chaos) have lost that main strength. The beastmen get stuff to make up for it (minotours, cheap spears in the form of ungors, centigors as core, ambush) but there’s nowt for the woodies.
Tomb Kings won’t do too badly. Yes the chariots have been nerfed, but the infantry, archers, skull catapults and Ushabti have had a big boost. Crumble for big units is no longer so awful when you mind them with the general/a hero. That’s now a lot easier to do with slots gone. Consider how deadly skeleton spearmen will now be, and how much tougher the Ushabti are now with the monsterous infantry rules.
The role of cavalry in general has now changed more towards what it was in the real world - they can’t charge big blocks of formed infantry anymore - it’s suicide. But catch them in the flank and they’re screwed. The devastating attacking units have now become monsterous infantry, with cavalry there as the supporting element. A combined charge in the front with large blocks of infantry/monsterous infantry with cavalry in the flank is now devastating, as you can wipe out the huge units we’re going to be seeing.
Baggronor:
Mmmm, you do raise some good points about the locus rules, although I would expect a lot of attacks to be placed on the Heralds. I still think the points cost is prohibitive for them to field mega units in 2k or less though. Anyway, we’ll see when the 8th ed games start 
Flesh Hounds and seekers are now awesome flanking units, especially since with the changes to frenzy the Hounds are much harder to misdirect.Flesh Hounds aren’t frenzied anymore, they just have 2 attacks. They were frenzied in the old HoC book.
Consider how deadly skeleton spearmen will now beFor their price, they aren’t great imo. True they get an extra rank of WS2 S3 attacks, but the incoming damage is now higher too. They will do ok, but I’m sceptical about the viability of Skeleton hordes, especially for TKs. Tomb Guard on the other hand will become much more popular I suspect, much like Grave Guard.
Grimstonefire:
Not to mention that any cavalry units need to be 2 ranks to negate rank bonus now. Even elite cavarly is not what it once was, and may need to form more expensive units (which makes it much harder to earn their points bacl)
Uzkul Werit:
I reckon Woodies. They lose all the flexibility of their skirmishers for what? Firing in multiple ranks with staic units of bowmen? In a game where ranked up infantry is key, they’ll suffer.
Chaos Dwarfs are fine. Death Rockets and Blunderbussmen love fat blocks of foot troops.
AGPO:
Yeah Wood Elves have been hit pretty hard with the giant Nerf Hammer that is Matt Ward
Baggronor:
the giant Nerf Hammer that is Matt WardCan we enshrine this phrase somewhere please, had me in fits :)
Swissdictator:
Baggronor: Your task is to now come up with a picture of Matt, in his wretched borderline ‘glory’, with a giant nerf hammer… and various other things that will show our complete contempt.
cornixt:
This is a nerf hammer (well, mallet really):
Maul:
I think tree kin ( stomp attack and fight in two ranks with three attacks) will make wood elves whole again and you won’t see as many dryads or war dancers.
phierlihy:
I’m not sure why people think Tomb Kings lost out when I see them as going gang-busters. Tomb Kings live and die by their magic phase. They always have. Now they can spam a LOT of incantations and there’s no way we can stop them. Heck, most of the scrolls you can buy to stop spells don’t even effect them. On top of that, they still generate a power pool which now can be used exclusively for their bound spells and/or dispelling other people’s Remains in Play spells! Ouch!!
None of their troops got worse and a few got better. Sure their Skeleton troops are junk but they can tarpit anything. And they are now, without a doubt, the most maneuverable army in Warhammer. Welcome to the flank charge everybody =(
The only upside is that they don’t generate any more dispel dice than anyone else so it isn’t impossible to snipe their Heirophant early.
Nazhur:
After the FAQ coming up I have changed my mind from Tomb kings to Wood elves. It seems a lot of things hit them hard. They will struggle with a 50 strong horde unit of about anything. Also with new rules for artillery, they will also hurt by that.