sam585:
So, being Chaos Dwarf player for a while, I have come to accept that my/our army is expensive both in terms of points and currency. However, I have always wanted to try to keep up my unit count to between 6-7 different deployments. However, should we even care at this point anymore about deployment? We are always going to be out deployed, and by spreading points around all it does is make our already small unit sizes even smaller.
Thus should we rethink our strategy and just embrace armies in sizes of 3-4 units, but those units are now very big/strong and capable of taking a hit on the chin?
Or should we still strive to keep a unit count of 6+?
I am not including hobgoblins, of course we can easily get a lot of deployments from having hobgoblins, but that also comes with its own issues.
TheHoodedMan:
I thought about this also.
There are a few things to keep in mind.
a) deployment: If we play few units we put down everything before enemy deploys his important stuff. Nevertheless its not sure to get the first player turn, but chances are 2:1. <br>We can replace by moving our fast units (destroyer, bull centaurs, to a certain degree iron daemon) in our first turn to the place we want them, thats not good but better than getting the wrong matchups.
b) Outnumbered:
Thats the bigger problem from my point of view. If we are heavily outnumbered (very often 2:1) enemy moves relatively unhindered over the battlefield and its difficult to prevent combined charges.
This is especially true if enemy fields chariots.
We need the maximum number of redirectors to stand against this problem, but personally I find that difficult.
From my point of view we have to get the upper hand on a point of the table at the beginning that the opponent must react and cannot act like planned.
But in the end 4 or 6 is not the big difference at 2500 pts, we will very often have that problem.
sam585:
Having redirector is important; however, as seen from twisted dwarfs army he has done quite well with no chaff at all. Maybe chaff is a trap for our forces due to not having access to things like 20 point Saber tusks
Doombeard:
taking one or two dreadquakes would be a good way of disrupting movement. the synergy in the 4th edition chaos dwarves was blast em with an earthshaker and spray them with blunderbuss shot , not seen many lists representing that
sam585:
taking one or two dreadquakes would be a good way of disrupting movement. the synergy in the 4th edition chaos dwarves was blast em with an earthshaker and spray them with blunderbuss shot , not seen many lists representing that
Doombeard
2 dread quake mortars are totally nasty, and wreck whatever it is that they hit many because of the dangerous terrain check wiping out some extra dudes. I did play a list which used those machines, but it does become a kind of repetitive uneventful game where you just shoot them to death and win or they get to your lines and likely still win. This however does not move away from the issue of weather or not we should care for having many units on the board. For a gun line army, it really does not matter since we just would shoot everything death. But I am talking about more active, combat lists.
I am currently toying with the idea of:
Daemonsmith level 2
Daemonsmith level 2
castellen bsb
Taur'ruk 1+ and dawnstone
Taur'ruk 1+ with stubborn
1 khan
1 khan
34 infernal with fireglaives
6 centaurs
Hellbound irondemon
Hellcannon
Technically, this list has 5 deployments, but in reality it has 6 different things that can participate in the movement phase, and depending on that match up 7 with one of the taur'ruk heroes running solo so in that way it has some flexibility.
TheHoodedMan:
Thats a nasty list.
Two Daemonsmith would let you take scroll and chalice for good magic control with only lvl 2, although you would need only 1 for the hellcannon. Death and Metal would be my choices.
The iron demon and the HC can deal out probably enough damage to force close combat lists to move forward and they are tough enough to take some distant firing.
As an opponent with say orcs, skaven or WoC I would try to concentrate on the Bull centaurs and get those points.
But that`s not a true weakness, but the IG and the tough biggies are difficult to get.
2 Khans are ok, but 3 would be better ;-).
Did you do some math already? Fits everything in?
sam585:
So my brain is saying to bring a destroyer with this list. Here is what I got so far…
345- Sorcerer Prophet
- Level 4
- Dispel Scroll
- Charmed Shield
- Opal Amulet
160- Infernal Castellen
-Enchanted Shield
-Dawnstone
235- Bull Centaur Taur’ruk
-Greatweapon
-Blackshard Armor
-Flame Helm
-Luck Stone
-Crown of Command
52- Khan
-wolf
52- Khan
-wolf
625- 34 Infernal Guard
-FCMD
-Shields
-Fireglaives
-Banner of swiftness
420- 7 Bullcentaurs
-FCMD
-Greatweapons
-Razor Standard
XXX- Irondemon
XXX- K’daii
TheHoodedMan:
Nice. Personally I would bring the Hellcannon instead of the ID. Against extremely mobile lists like wood elves it is more of a threat and you can wheel and charge in an emergency.
sam585:
That is true, but the Irondemon can still shoot and drive around, and I can live with just having a tough match against woodelves/ elf avoid lists in general. Surprisingly there is not to many min/max elves in the local area, perhaps BOTWD brick list, but I think my guys would have a good time with that.
Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed:
I fill my core with hobgoblins. Perfect for a gunline imo. I give them shields and bows ranked up 5x4. They redirect and get in the way. Plenty of drops. Works a treat.
sam585:
Ok so here is truly a list that does not even begin to care about being out deployed.
Everything is stubborn and or unbreakable
Everything hits pretty hard
Flying Prophet, to better throw fire and ash at people
Castellen is for fun first, giving my guys a form of magical non flaming, yet super killing blow
The infernal Guard can likely pick off chaff. If facing a gutstar they will totally obliterate it once ashstorm is gently placed unto it in the CC phase. Against anything that is immune to flaming (Dragon princes, DBG, Flamehelm) I could not kill it anyway since they would likely also be sporting 1+ save, toughness 5, and whatever else, so not concerned about those opponents.
All the opponents Chaff will have to stop the Destroyer, or risk being destroyed
The Bullcentaurs will grind down and run over anything it comes into
Irondemon for blowing people apart, and holding up something that might be a threat
Level 4 Sorcerer Prophet -Hashut
- Opal Amulet (One time 4+ ward)
- Charmed Shield
- power stone
- flying carpet
Castellan -BSB
-Enchanted shield
-Dawnstone
-Blackhammer
Bull Centaur Taur’Ruk
- Great Weapon
- Blackshard Armor
- Flamehelm
- Luckstone
- Crown of Command
34 Infernal Guard
- Fireglaives
- FCMD
- Nanptha bomb
- Banner of Eternal Flame
7 Bull Centaurs
-FCMD
- Greatweapons
- The Razor Standard
Irondemon
- Hellbound
K’daii Destroyer
TheHoodedMan:
That is a consistent build, I like it.
sam585:
So I tested the list against a Tomb Kings. It fared much better than my previous list, and that was actually quite surprising (I fought the Tomb Kings player last week with my more balanced/all comers style 2.5k list and got tabled). To me I just find it hard to wrap my head around as to why it performed well. Does it boil down simply to the fact that a K’daii Destroyer is just so difficult to handle? I am not sure.
The way it played out, was I marched the Irondemon down the board hoping to kill his casket with shooting (before I realized that it had toughness 10).
The Bullcentaur block marched full speed ahead, aiming for his block of 60 skeletons with Tomb King. The infernal guard where on the other side with a K’daii destoyer holding down the other flank.
What occurred next, the K’daii managed to holdup the entire left flank of my opponents army, due to him not knowing exactly how to fight off a K’daii destroyer. He did however, not go for a easy flank charge against it and instead sent his morghasts and chariots into my large infernal guard block. This turned into a very painful grind which saw the infernal guard all slain.
The irondemon gets stuck fighting ushabati.
The Bullcentaurs kill the entire skeleton block with tomb king, a group of 2 morghasts (which hit their flank), and the rest of the chariots (which hit the other flank).
At the end, I was left my Bullcentaurs with hero, K’daii, and Irondemon. He was left a unit of morghasts, stalkers, casket, herotitan, archer bunker, chaff unit, and catapault. Resulting in a draw.
I am sure that if I would deployed more like this:
[Centaurs][Infernal][Irondemon]