Thommy H:
Oh relax, Swiss. I’m just having fun. You can tell because I’m using long words and bringing in formal names for fallacies. I think I’ve made my views fairly clear - not just here, but elsewhere - but Hobgoblyn is arguing against a position that only exists in his own mind.
Willmark:
I’ve looked this over and if Ogre Kingdoms taught is anything its that anything is possible in terms of an army.
There is nothing to go on then Harry;s statements on Warseer about a new “old army”, that doesn’t leave too many options. So to me Chaos Dwarfs are as plausible as anything else.
Cathay, Nauticans,
Tarrakk Blackhand:
What's the difference between Ultra Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templar, Gray Knights, and Sisters of Battle?Simple. They are part of that whole "Space Marines" army. These are just the rules for those Space Marine lovers to have some variety to set them appart from the other Space Marine players.
Aren't those all exactly the same thing (with the minor distinction of the last one being female)?
Yet every single one of those has its own army book and, to some extent, its own army line. And you know what the popular favorite is for the next 40K army? Deathwatch.
hobgoblyn
Are they already underway creating Cathay?I don't know. Are they? Where's the link? Where's the announcement that GW is devoting time to a Cathay book?
hobgoblyn
But where does the real sales come from? It comes from selling models and if GW can create a line of hot selling models, why should they pass that up simply because those models would lend themselves to playing similarly to models they already produce?You ever been in a GW store? Trust me! If they have stuff on shelves, they'll get you to buy it. Hot or not, GW WILL sell you their items.
hobgoblyn
Swissdictator:
Ok fair enough, I just want everyone to be getting along fine. 
GW can do what it wants, for whatever reason it wants. I’ve heard more stirrings about CD than I have Cathay. There is no scientific pattern to the decision, as we’re dealing with humans making choices vs creating a machine.
Hobgoblyn: I have a history degree. I’d probably enjoy any of the human factions you mentioned. While you make a point about SM, I don’t think that works as an argument as there is something different about humans vs power armored troops. It seems like they have different options, special rules, and force organizations.
The thing with fantasy is the equipment can’t vary as much. So it’s harder to add a distinct feeling. Even with SM, CSM, SW, SoB, etc… there is something distinct.
I can see Cathay being done, and I would be intrigued. However, GW also knows that there is an established interest in CD. Not just because of this site… but due to fluff reasons and a variety of other factors. As far as I know there isn’t even a forum for Cathay themed armies (either using other army rules and converting figs, or home rules).
The one factor that made a big difference for me is when they did a 180 on Chaos Dwarfs and allowed them in 'ard Boyz. Which is the main reason I participated anyways, granted it helped round 3 was at the Chicago Battle Bunker which is only 1.5 hours away from home. Still, that says something to me. That is certainly an indicator GW isn’t going to drop them, and has them on their mind. As it’d be easy to copy and paste the old rules.
Hobgoblyn:
Again, you have no evidence to suggest that those ideas are even on the drawing board, or that if they were they would necessarily have to be released ahead of Chaos Dwarfs. Once again, you present a false dichotomy: either GW can be creative and make many new armies (of which Chaos Dwarf would be just one), or they can do nothing and sit on their ideas because there's nothing to chose between any of them. Why can't they pick one of their good ideas at random, as they did with Ogre Kingdoms and Tau? If they can do that, then Chaos Dwarfs at least have as good a chance as any other of being producedYes, but you see that's the crux.
Thommy H
Tarrakk Blackhand:
The fact of the matter is that GW doesn’t always do what people expect. Tau and Ogre Kingdoms)
Currently, they are probably going to focus on updating their current “Most Popular” list in lieu to the recession.
Anyway, I don’t understand how releasing Cathay has anything to do with Henroth’s question.
Tarrakk Blackhand:
How are the chances of Chaos Dwarfs being the next WarHammer Fantasy army much higher than Squats (under their new name "Demiurg") being the next WarHammer 40K army?Because Squats were eaten by the Tyranids.
Hobgoblyn
Thommy H:
Hobgoblyn: once again, I don’t know who you’re arguing with. The arguments in your post that aren’t counters to anything I’ve said. Yes, having a few Chaos Dwarf units in Warriors of Chaos would be a fine way to handle things - I don’t recall ever suggesting otherwise. You seem to have decided that me (and others?) are rampant for GW to bring Chaos Dwarfs out right now, and that we’re willing to sacrifice other armies, and maybe even GW’s business as a whole, to get that. You’ve consistently argued as if we’re angry about something, as if we won’t take no for an answer, but all we’ve been doing is disagreeing with what you say about it being an either/or proposition that Chaos Dwarfs will one day appear on the scene.
You say it won’t happen. We say it might, and there’s no reason not to think it will one day. You reply by acting as if we said it definitely will and we go 'round in circles.
No one said the things you think they said.
Hobgoblyn:
One thing you don't mention is that those armies had their books published back in the same time as Dark Eldar and Necrons. There's nothing current for them and probably won't be in the forseeable future.Ummm.. what? o_O
Tarrakk Blackhand
Thommy H:
Imperial Guard (another human army, not Space Marine but not much different)How are Imperial Guard similar to Space Marines outside of being members of the same faction in the background?
Warhammerman:
The answer to that is not similar at all. Space Marines are uber spiritual killing machines. :hat off And Guard are just a bunch of soldiers trying to get by.Imperial Guard (another human army, not Space Marine but not much different)How are Imperial Guard similar to Space Marines outside of being members of the same faction in the background?
Thommy H
Hobgoblyn:
Hobgoblyn: once again, I don't know who you're arguing with. The arguments in your post that aren't counters to anything I've said. Yes, having a few Chaos Dwarf units in Warriors of Chaos would be a fine way to handle things - I don't recall ever suggesting otherwise. You seem to have decided that me (and others?) are rampant for GW to bring Chaos Dwarfs out right now, and that we're willing to sacrifice other armies, and maybe even GW's business as a whole, to get that.So you didn't say "You don't need a rule for everything that's mentioned in the game." while implying that we should have unique rules for Chaos Dwarfs?
Thommy H
Willmark:
...It wouldn't be unreasonable for them to simply say "Chaos Dwarfs= Chaos Warriors, Hobgoblin=Marauders-- done and done" therefore not even have to step on GW's toes by creating an army book.It wouldn't, and perhaps not unreasonable, but there is only one problem with this: GW has been separating out armies into their own individual rules with each book, and separating out Dogs of War as well. They have even said they have done this as a conscious design choice: to make each book stand on its own.
I might get proven wrong. We'll find out.
Hobgoblyn
Grimstonefire:
It would be totally strange for FW to release models but no rules at all (saying ‘use WoC’).
GW studio doesn’t have the exclusive rights to produce ‘GW’ army books as far as I know. If FW wanted to produce an army book I see no reasons why they couldn’t. It’s much more likely that FW would do it, as there is practically nothing they could release that would step on GW studio toes. A new hellcannon would be the only thing, but somehow I think people would be happy to pay for one that actually went together easily! :D
How GW would support the FW rules should be discussed in a new thread please (it would be interesting actually).
cornixt:
FW do have an established history of producing rules, if not a full book so far, but who’s to say it won’t be some kind of add-on for an existing army - likely to be Dwarfs or WoC.
Tarrakk Blackhand:
I think Hobgoblyn is getting a little too “Excited” about this.
So what if my dates are a bit off. Fact of the matter is that Space Marines are always going to sell, no matter what the “Spice” they add to them is.
Getting back to the point of what army comes out next…
It’s ultimatly up to GW, however, Chaos Dwarfs have been on the books for years.
Henroth:
At all, the final conclusion is that GW continues mentioning to the Chaos Dwarfs in other books of army to torture ourselves. :madIs it some class of torture for the fans of the CD's?Yes.
Henroth
Standard GW business practice.
Suffer you maggots. Suffer!
snowblizz
Thommy H:
So you didn't say "You don't need a rule for everything that's mentioned in the game." while implying that we should have unique rules for Chaos Dwarfs?Uh. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.
Hobgoblyn:
Well, if you had a game that was based on European Knights but was created in Japan or China or India, would you reject it all out? I mean, Nintendo’s bigges video icon is an Italian plumber from New York… it’s even a bit racist, but do Americans or even Italian-Americans scream “screw you” and not buy the games?
The absolute fame of 3-Kingdoms games in China and Japan should inform you that as long as you do it respectfully, they’ll eat it right up. And many western gamers will too! Those who don’t already have tons of models.
And, yes, once you create this Cathay army, presuming it does in fact sell well, then you can take off again. They can create Chaos Dwarfs, but they could also create Ind, they could create Fishmen or Hobgoblin Khanite or Nippon or Araby (might be the most contenious one actually).
But, the first step is to secure this new market. Because GW doesn’t seem to be doing a very good job of securing new markets right now and their existing gamers tend to be abandoning the game because they either bought everything they will ever need or because they just don’t feel like playing any more. The ventures into video games have resulted in a number of horribly flops. Even if one can argue that some of the games were pretty good (Dawn of War 1 and its expansions were good for instance!) they weren’t high sellers and many of the buyers were already WarHammer fans rather than the games serving to bring video game fans into WarHammer… and those that it did bring in were for 40K, not fantasy.
And since GW can just sell the same models in 40K and claim they represent 7 different armies while the entire Fantasy model line sells less than 1/10th of what the Space Marines alone sell… I think it is understandable that they put less and less effort behind a brand that seems to be losing steam. WarHammer Online should have been a HUGE boost to their market, instead it was a rather pitiful online game that many people have totally abandoned. I’ve played EverQuest and WarCraft and City of Heroes and half a dozen other online MMORPGS I can tell you… WarHammer Online must rank as one of the ones I spent the least time on before realizing it was crap and deleting it.
Thommy H:
Well, if you had a game that was based on European Knights but was created in Japan or China or India, would you reject it all out?No, but Western culture is dominant in those markets anyway. America is so powerful and pervasive that people all over the world know the tropes associated with European history and mythology well enough to make a pretty good stab at them. I can't imagine GW's current crop of writers making anything but a wildly offensive stab at a Chinese army - awful stuff with guys in silly hats and dragons everywhere. Plus they'd probably throw Samurai and Ninja in there without realising it was wrong.