I noticed some people are very much against using “unofficial” rules, whatever the reason, i wan’t to put some armuments on the table to gain some unified support.
If this book gets succesfull, then more people will start showing up on tournaments. And if that happens, then GW might recognise marketting potential. So instead og complaining on whenever it should or should not be used we could start lobbying for it. Maby send some letters to GT organisers etc, so that GW might remeber about CD, if they see CD being succesful and popular, then they might do something about it.
I think they have already taken notice, this is the first year that the US Ard Boyz tournament has allowed Chaos Dwarfs, but RH list only. It might be a test to see if there is a market for CDs. Personally I think it is good to see them played at tournaments no matter which set of rules is used.
The fact that GW suddenly cracked down on us early in the year for use of their IP, despite the fact they didn’t give a crap until then, probably indicates that their position on CDs is shifting. Perhaps they are considering what direction to take them in. They won’t allow the indy list at GW tournies because it isn’t one of their products, and if they allowed us to use an unofficial book then all sorts of fan lists would get shoved at them; it just isn’t realistic.
Having said which, I think the book is a great thing, probably the best way to convince GW that CDs have potential. If we go to these lengths to collect and play an army they effectively abandoned 10 years ago, then it has to say something.
GW has to protect their IP else they might lose the rights to it. There are many tournaments, with no ties to GW, this ones we should try to lobby, and i mean large tournies. For example there are 10 huge tournaments in Poland every year classified as “Masters” holding more than 200 players each.
In Canada, the RH list has always been legal for GW tournaments, I’ve always wondered how GW sponsored Tournaments could not allow an army with a valid “official” list - it would be akin to saying that "in this tournament we will not allow anyone to play High Elves."
That aside, I believe that the Indy CD book, and the way it was meant to be used - with tournaments allowing it giving the links to the participants and thereby spreading the word of this, often underappreciated army.
Andif GW is especially lazy, it gives them a pretty good base to build an army book of their own on with minimal effort and testing.
The RH list was allowed in 2007. Not sure about before that, I hadn't heard of it before then.
cornixt
They were not allowed in the US until 2009.
The Brain
Repeating it again doesn't make it true. This thread shows that they were allowed in 2008:
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=2335
Edit: Found the 2008 Ard Boyz Rules pack pdf for 2008, with all the weird Chaos list fun in which different Chaos lists became legal at different stages of the tournament. This was what I was thinking of when I said 2007, so I have no idea about that year or before then.
Simply put games workshop make games fact. I think the issue arrises its head with chaos dwarf players because they havent supported them leaving other people to work there magic’s with what was left behind. If then people started comming up wiht dowloadable ad-hoc army books that became largely utilised then simply gamesworkshop would go out of bussiness very quick.
In the early 1990’s I do remember having a huge talk with one of the as known then mai order trolls. I was a student and had ittle or no money most of the time. The thing that stuck a chord is what the guy said “We dont care if you dont use our models we just care if you play and enjoy our games”. I think the whole squat and even the dark eldar have become some what of a embarasment of riches (i mean no offence I have collected dark eldar and they were my third complete army (i always see an army complete at 5000 points) but the new willingness to consider the openess to other third party materian comes from the expanding company portfolio with the black library and forgeword amoungst many.
With this I would concour with many people here there shfitng position not only chaos dwarves but many of the other armies gamesworkshop have the interlectual investment in there portfolio and the shifting in ideals and methodology.
As we know a fan made publication however polished will take the wind out of gamesworkshop and then we will see the “Bloodelf” “Nightelf” “draenei” army list and thats simply wont work towards gamesworkshops past workings.
For me as I have mentioned before the “Bloodelf” “Nightelf” “draenei” woulld be kinda fun but I can see why gamesworkshop wouldnt like to officaly brand an unnoficial product to lose money but they need ot recognise that simply ignoreing the product and fanbase will not do. Could you immagine the fallout of every army.
And simply consistancy could you even immagine an unnoficial Empire, unnoficial Bretonnia, unnoficial Kislev, unnoficial high Elves, unnoficial dark Elves, unnoficial wood Elves , unnoficial Dwarfs, unnoficial Undead, unnoficial Orcs and Goblins, unnoficial Vampires, as well as Lizardmen, Skaven, daemon, beastmen and forces of Chaos and then picture a few different fluff fillled pdf’s floating around with several different versions of each and several different types of madness !
I personaly think its good for the game and good for us players of the game but we will still unfortunately need to wait to feel the winds of change.
GW will do whatever GW wants to do with regards to CD in or out of tournies.
Sad to say that petitions etc don’t work.
If you want it to be used in indy tournies near you that is a different matter, just contact the organisers well in advance and give a convincing arguement.
When GW gets round to doing CD it will not be because of the efforts of the fans, it will be down to potential profits.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Hobgoblin Wolf Riders are the best unit in…oh no, hang on, it’s the other one:
The only thing that will make GW support Chaos Dwarfs again is to demonstrate that there is a potential market for them in the playing community. The Indy GT book is a step in the right direction - it’s a fan work of unusual quality that is encouraging people to use Chaos Dwarf armies in visible settings, like tournaments. Other fan-made lists, the wiki, the Word of Hashut and even this very website are also good demonstrations of the same kind.
So, we should support the Indy GT list because it’s a good piece of fan work, but I’m still wary of ordaining it as the way to play Chaos Dwarfs and getting behind it as if it’s somehow more official (or, worse, better) than the other things produced by the Chaos Dwarf community. We’re all doing our bit, and we should encourage everyone to add their creativity to the melting pot, rather than thinking that any single effort is an automatic fix for the problem.
My sentiments are the same as Thommy’s. It has given us some visibility in the game, even if I’m not completely happy with the list itself.
Some people don’t even like using non-army book lists from GW, anything they see as “unofficial” is potentially unbalanced/unfair/etc and even the people who think more freely in a game against close friends are a bit reluctant to use the unendorsed lists from strangers. GW saw to it that we didn’t die in the fluff (or just fade away), so now the biggest obsticle is getting recognition in gaming terms.
So, we should support the Indy GT list because it's a good piece of fan work, but I'm still wary of ordaining it as the way to play Chaos Dwarfs and getting behind it as if it's somehow more official (or, worse, better) than the other things produced by the Chaos Dwarf community. We're all doing our bit, and we should encourage everyone to add their creativity to the melting pot, rather than thinking that any single effort is an automatic fix for the problem.
Yep. I have some issues with the Indy list in terms of fluff and (dare I say it) balance regarding some of the Special choices, but it does give us visibility. I don't want to be in the situation where I can't choose to use the Dwarf list because I prefer it either.
For me as I have mentioned before the "Bloodelf" "Nightelf" "draenei" woulld be kinda fun but I can see why gamesworkshop wouldnt like to officaly brand an unnoficial product to lose money but they need ot recognise that simply ignoreing the product and fanbase will not do.
Not to mention the lawsuit from Blizzard regarding use of their IP :)
I really, really don’t want us to get into a situation where there’s pressure on this community to support this particular fan list. I think the existence of a list with a certain amount of recognition is broadly a good thing, but there’s nothing in particular about this book that elevates it above the other fan lists floating around.
The book strengthens the community. The community has no duty to strengthen the status of the book.
so together our support strengthens the indy book.
but through hightened appearances of CD on non GW tournaments make realise that GW can make money on CD, thus granting us reeditioned CD book, or at least CD update.
but there’s nothing in particular about this book that elevates it above the other fan lists floating around.
there are 2 min things, first its a brand, it was made cos some GT orgs decided they want an update for their tourney. 2nd is that it is game wise, not overexagerated too personalized vision.