[Archive] Willmark's first game in years!

Willmark:

Got a chance to play my first game in years and my first in 8th. Got to say I loved it despite narrowly loosing.

It was wood elves vs orcs and goblins. I played o&g. We played the banner capture scenario.

I’m formalating a BR but some random notes:

I was hot with the artillery dice I hit every time bang on with no deviations. My guessing undef the old rules wasn’t bad but I never was able to get direct hits.

Armor saves- I couldn’t make one unless it was a 6+

Black orcs kick butt with a character model in them. Mowed through a unit of dryads in a wood that had the poisoined weapon random effect.

I really like the randomness for forests and rivers now.

Despite rolling a 1 for impact hits I was still able to rout the glade guards I charged with the boar chariot.

Grimstonefire:

What do you think of magic in 8th?

I’ve yet to have a game in 8th, infact my last game was february I think. :~

Willmark:

Liked it.

In fact I was struck by how smoothly it played. In fact it had the feel of 3rd edition warhammer in terms of play.

Another added boon was the limit on dispel scrolls.

I had a large horde unit of boyz that got ripped to shreds by treekin. The thing with hordes it seems is to not get struck in with big bad units of ogres, trolls etc as despite the numbers I got slaughtered in that combat despite rolling well. I’d be interested to see how they preform otherwise.

Magic in unpredictable which I like, in fact the randomness of the game really takes away the git factor from opponnents when they would explain with glee: “Yah your charge missed by 1/4” of an inch, mwwwwwaaaahaaaa". And you’d be like dude, STFU.

In all I like 8th as it’s a faster, looser game and the randomness forces people to play rather then playing the meta game solely.

Corker:

As far as horde units go, I think they really only work as, slightly, more effective speed bumps. With having 10 wide you are able to block a bigger path, and get more attacks in, which prevents you from losing combat as badly, and if you have enough ranks you are steadfast. I don’t think, however, that thy are effective as hard hitters unless you are going to be using units that are quite pricy, such as High Elf spears which give you the extra rank of attack, in which case it normally isn’t cost effective.

I gotta say, I agree with you on the magic, for the most part, my only problem is that it makes certain combinations a bit insane, such as Slaan. When everybody else is limited to 12 dice, they can often get upwards of 16 depending on how many times they cast. And with Dwarfs, depending on how they are played, it is all but impossible to cast magic against them unless you roll a lot of irresistibles/miscasts since they can relatively easily have 5 or more dispel dice before winds of magic is even rolled. But over all it works out as being very high risk high reward, and I like how it plays.

I’m also curious to know what you thought about the rules regarding moving through cover. Especially coming from a Dwarf/Chaos Dwarf perspective its amazing being able to march through forests rather than moving 1 1/2 inches.

Verezzo:

I gotta say, I agree with you on the magic, for the most part, my only problem is that it makes certain combinations a bit insane, such as Slaan. When everybody else is limited to 12 dice, they can often get upwards of 16 depending on how many times they cast. And with Dwarfs, depending on how they are played, it is all but impossible to cast magic against them unless you roll a lot of irresistibles/miscasts since they can relatively easily have 5 or more dispel dice before winds of magic is even rolled. But over all it works out as being very high risk high reward, and I like how it plays.

Corker
I really agree with you there Corker - for instance it's really hard to get out the upgraded Purple Sun without a miscast but if you do get it out, boy it hurts :)!

Something I also like is that the Dreaded 13th Spell has really lost it's 'Wow - 25+ to cast!' factor that shocked everyone when you said you where going to get your Grey Seer to cast it - it was really annoying me by the end of 7th ;P!

Willmark:

As far as horde units go, I think they really only work as, slightly, more effective speed bumps. With having 10 wide you are able to block a bigger path, and get more attacks in, which prevents you from losing combat as badly, and if you have enough ranks you are steadfast. I don't think, however, that thy are effective as hard hitters unless you are going to be using units that are quite pricy, such as High Elf spears which give you the extra rank of attack, in which case it normally isn't cost effective.

Corker
I think the secret is what one gets them stuck in against. People are fooling themselves if they thinks its going to get them anywhere against the truly tough units in the game. That said against a medium type of infantry that is not horde its in your favor.

I also tied up a elf noble with a unit of spider rides for the whole game, not bad...

Grimstonefire:

I was thinking about that as well, the tactical benefits against elite armies of splitting the horde into 2 units.  One for flanking.

I know you have a high elf army, do you have an O&G one as well? Is it painted? :wink:

Baggronor:

And you'd be like dude, STFU.
I couldn't have put it better myself. I really like 8th for the same reason, people can't play the bullsh*t 'dance and shoot' lists anymore. Its quite entertaining reading the lamenting of these 'tacticians' on certain forums :)
I don't think, however, that thy are effective as hard hitters
My mate's 50 strong Horde of Khorne Marauders with great weapons disagree :) They eat everything for breakfast. Its terrifying how cheap they are for so much damage potential.

klemanius:

yeah. When 8th came out we played a challenge were everyone had 1 1000pt unit (+characters). There were Chosen blocks, Tzentch Knights, Greatswords…and my unit of 50 thunderers:D

The games winner was a massive block of gores with greatweapons which ate 30 khorne marauder horse and won the game by destroying the Greatswords.

So they can work, but in general I agree on the speedbump assessment, They get absolutely hammered so it counteracts the horde rule rather easily not worth it really unless you run it so they can absorb the wounds and still hit back in 3 ranks.

That’s why I’m leaning towards units of 70 rabble with spears so I still get my 40 attacks after losing 30 models. Though I see no reason why RH 2pt hobgobs couldn’t pull the same thing.

Willmark:

And you'd be like dude, STFU.
I couldn't have put it better myself. I really like 8th for the same reason, people can't play the bullsh*t 'dance and shoot' lists anymore. Its quite entertaining reading the lamenting of these 'tacticians' on certain forums :)
I don't think, however, that thy are effective as hard hitters
My mate's 50 strong Horde of Khorne Marauders with great weapons disagree :) They eat everything for breakfast. Its terrifying how cheap they are for so much damage potential.


Baggronor
Throw them against something with a high toughness however and watch how those attacks far. I had a unit of boyz and I rolled quite well actually considering.

I'm not saying its impossible but you have to be careful, just because its a big unit with lots of attacks does not mean auto- deathstar win.

Corker:

I understand that they can be quite useful on occasion, but on the whole I think you’d have a lot better luck running two units that are deep. This is because it allows you to hold up multiple units or get flanks, and so long as you have a heavy hitter there to hit the flanks, you shouldn’t necessarily be needing to hold up the guy for that long. And to be honest if you need to hold them up for a while and they are a heavy hitter, you’re horde with lose its steadfast relatively quickly, and be gone before it could do too much good.

I’ve seen some people have some great success running the 10+ rank blocks, but just like with the hordes I think on average you’re tying up too many points for something that can hold up a single unit, and unless the unit is about 1/2 the cost they normally won’t be doing well against it (Slaves being the one exception because they are so cheap that its often worth it to hold up even a heavy hitter for two turns because you’d lose maybe 100 points).

One, I think, huge change that I would like to get your opinion on is the impact not being able to fight your way out of combat, especially on low toughness units like Bloodletters.

Grimstonefire:

That is a very good point actually, the most effective horde units are the ones that can earn back their points.  Otherwise it’s just wasted points that could be put to better use.

If you think you won’t be able to fight your way out of combat the battle is already lost before it begins, I think you’d need to have as cheap a hero as you can get in there with a decent magic weapon.  You’d also need to plan to take a big unit and a smaller one to flank.  Infact ideally the flanking unit should be the elite hammer and the unit attacking the front the expendable anvil (with shields), because the uber deathstar horde will not fight in multiple rows to the side.

Corker:

One great way to do this, in terms of Orcs and Goblins would be to run a horde of either goblins or boyz, both are cheap enough depending on how you use them, and give them hand weapon shield. You now have a big block that’s going to get a lot of attacks in and while they’ll only get maybe 3 or 4 wounds in, they will all be getting the benefit of the cheapest ward save in the game, so they should hold any unit there long enough for Grimgor and 24 of his closest friends (Immortulz) to come and turn the lights out next turn.

Baggronor:

Horde isn’t a viable formation for everyone, but for some armies its a very good option.

For most troop types its usually a simple yes or no to Horde, but there are exceptions like Dwarf Warriors and DE spears who are cheap enough to go Horde but also pricey enough that they’re unlikely to be fielded in numbers above 35. Such troops can reform depending on who they fight and see real benefits; against Goblins for example, Horde Dwarfs are excellent, while against Chaos Warriors, ranking deep is better for them. I think the rule of thumb is: If you’re better fighters than your opponents, go Horde, otherwise keep the ranks for Steadfast.

Units like Marauders and DE spears are also doubly effective when they get bonuses from Warshrines, Cauldron of Blood etc that affect the entire unit.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I had the “opportunity” to fight a block of 40 Dark Elf Executioners in my last game which was followed by a Cauldron of Blood who’s sole responsibility was to give the unit a 5+ Ward Save. And he marched them right up the middle where I had to fight them. The Executioners utterly crushed the two units I let him touch (one of which was a block of 40 Mauraders wielding Great Weapons) but all told the Executioner block was worth 800ish points but earned back perhaps 350 points. And at the end of the game were the only Dark Elf unit left on the table.

The Horde formation is just not for everybody. As a tactic, it is a good one and can be a real game-changer when used at the right time against the right opponent. But I don’t see it as viable for troops that cost more than 7 points per model unless they are missle troops. It is simply too easy to avoid in a regular battle. And magic being what it is can now cause that basket of eggs to be lost very quickly. It’s definitely worth trying. But don’t rely on it to win you all your games.

Baggronor:

But I don't see it as viable for troops that cost more than 7 points per model unless they are missle troops.
That pretty much sums it up, with the odd exception (Horde Plague Monks with the Plague Banner = :o).
The Executioners utterly crushed the two units I let him touch (one of which was a block of 40 Mauraders wielding Great Weapons) but all told the Executioner block was worth 800ish points but earned back perhaps 350 points. And at the end of the game were the only Dark Elf unit left on the table.
You do know units with ASL strike simultaneously, yes? So the Marauders would swing at the same time as the Executioners, making mutual annihilation pretty likely (assuming Mark of Khorne here). Or did he have the ASF banner?

Grimbold Blackhammer:

Actually the Marauders fighting the Executioners was like watching two old women beating each other with their purses.  Everything was done correctly, striking in initiative order and such, but there were so many modifiers that our troops were gimped.  The Mauraders bore the Mark of Nurgle and I had reduced the Executioner’s Strength and Weapon Skill by 1 with Magic.  The Mauraders were -2 Toughness and something else due to enemy Magic so in the end, the Marauders killed a whopping 3 Executioners while Hatred fueled the Executioners to make 7 kills.  And the Executioners made a ridiculous number of 5+ Ward Saves thanks to the Cauldron of Blood.  My Marauders broke and ran with their skirts blowing behind them.

In a straight up fight, you’re correct that there should have been a lot of mutual destruction.  But in this case, they were rather devestating. Very fun game though!

Grimbold Blackhammer

Gar Shadowfame:

i think ASL  ignores initiative order and you strike at the same time

Corker:

I’m pretty sure that Gar is right on this one.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

Appologies, I should have been more clear.  We followed the appropriate initiative order in that Always Strikes Last is simultaneous.

Grimbold Blackhammer