I played a friendly match agains Dwarfen Mountain Pricks yesterday, and some of them had “Hatred (Orcs & Goblins)” rule. Does this apply only to the “Orc & Goblin Tribe” faction? Or does it apply also to my Black Orcs? What about Hobgoblins?
Reddit isn’t really helpful here, everyone has their own mind about that, and it seems like the official rules aren’t helpful either (or I just can’t find what I’m looking for).
As we don’t have keywords in that sense in TOW or WHFB before, traditionally it meant “every unit from the Orcs & Goblins army list”. So it would also include units like Trolls, but not Black Orcs from Chaos Dwarf armies. Does that make sense? Not really. But it gets really crunchy otherwise.
It also works the other way around, btw. Night Goblins have Hatred (Dwarfs), that does not include Chaos Dwarfs.
That is actually quite a tricky question. Definitely discuss it with your opponent if you are fielding black orcs.
For me RAW, it should apply to every “Orc xxx” and “goblin xxx” so your black orc get hated, but your hobgobelins do not. Same as the rule would not proc against gnobblars from the Ogre kingdom (despite the lore clearly stating they are greenskins, in size and strength somewhere between snotling and night globlin).
RAI you could argue the rule is supposed to target all greenskins.
Lorewise it would make sense that the traitorkins to hate all the chaos dwarfs, since the only mention of Dawi Zharr in the mountain holds earn you a death warrant. (See what happened in Gotrek and Felix).
Definetely “rule 0” this with your opponent tho.
I think just going by faction is the way to go.
Dark Elves have Hatred (High Elves). Do they hate Great Eagles or Frostheart Phoenixes? Harald Gemunsen has Hatred (Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen Breayheards and Daemonic models). Does he hate Chaos Marauders?
Now the tricky part is that sometimes what’s in the bracket is an identical match to a faction, like Beastmen Brayherds, sometimes it is not, like High Elves or Orcs & Goblins, and sometimes it’s both, like Warriors of Chaos.
Discussing with the opponent is always the right thing to do, and I would always argue for whole factions. That leaves grey areas, like our Black Orcs and Hobgoblins, but since we don’t have unambiguous keywords on every model for this, going model by model can get nitpicky and slow the game down.
So I checked with my local pro (flies to Europe and around the US for various high profile championships) and he said these differences are intentional and tell you exactly who they Hate. Essentially, if the Hatred is for High Elf Realms then they hate everything in the book. If they hate "High Elves”, then just the elves themselves.
In this case his Dwarfs would hate your Black Orcs. However, hobgoblins and gnoblars are neither orcs nor goblins so it would not apply to them.
Aye, while I agree with that idea, it opens up just as many problems as going by factions does.
Please ask your friend how they handle Harald Gemunsen. Does he hate Warriors of Chaos or Warriors of Chaos? By what metric did they decide in this case?
I mean just to clear: I believe him, it’s the only logical conclusion, but it’s very clumsy. And apart from WoC-like problems (don’t know if there are more, that was just the first one that came to mind) the two are probably very homogeneous, especially without legacy factions, which is of course always GW party line.
edit
Nevermind, the unit is “Chaos Warriors”, it’s the faction.
So does it mean that Night Goblins with their “Hatred (Dwarfs)” hate also Chaos Dwarfs?
Judging by the earlier metric they should hate all the Dwarfen units in a Chaos Dwarf army. So
Makes sense, thanks!
Yes I’d agree with Jasko here. If a dark elf is an elf than a chaos dwarf must be a dwarf.
100% in agreement with the previous position.
Even if it leads to some oddities. Like night goblin hate dwarfs, chaos and mountain holds. They fear all elves.
Dwarfs on the other hand hate orcs and goblins, but hobgobelins, gnoblars and snotlings get a free pass.
But overall I think it is the best option.
Yeah as I said before, lack of “race” keywords is making it all a bit clanky.
It’s also the situation where a legacy list (Chaos Dwarfs) cannot be referenced in any way by a book list, so they won’t readily make that clarification for our army in general. There are the Chaos Dwarfs crewing the Hellcannon though, and that is a unit in a supported army (Warriors of Chaos) so it could come out of that. Not that we really want other armies to have advantages over our army with Hatred.
Yes, the whole legacy army again complicates things needlessly. But the Hellcannon would indeed be a way to address it within core factions. They could also use Great Eagles to answer it generally for faction vs race.
Wouldn’t have been that difficult at the beginning of ToW to create race category or get some extra clarification of the rules. 6th ed was a bit clearer on this, dawi side.
And our beloved traitor hobgobelins were included in the naughty list. Looking at rule jurisprudence, can help resolve discussion with an opponent, it’s a case of “spirit of the law vs letter of the law”
Edit : just checked night goblin and dark elves in 6th ed it just says “hate dwarfs” “hate high elves”. But atleast those were the name of the army books.