# \[TOW\] Let's get competitive
**URL:** https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270
**Category:** Army List and Gaming Discussion
**Created:** [15 February 2024 20:17 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270 "2024-02-15T20:17:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [18 July 2024 14:47 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/182 "2024-07-18T14:47:05Z")
You can cast TMP on the Magma Cannon after it was “moved” using Steam Carriage, but once you do that, it counts as moved and cannot shoot.
edit
Ah, I guess you mean what happens if you cast TMP on the Iron Daemon and take the Magma Cannon with it? That should work.
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### Author:  [@Anima](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Anima)
#### Post date: [18 July 2024 15:32 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/183 "2024-07-18T15:32:26Z")
There it is the Fearsome Flanking Flame Cannon plus its little train buddy.
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### Author:  [@ULFHEDNIR](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/ULFHEDNIR)
#### Post date: [23 July 2024 07:34 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/184 "2024-07-23T07:34:52Z")
Thats great, thanks bro 🙂
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### Author:  [@MiSiO](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/MiSiO)
#### Post date: [30 July 2024 14:03 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/185 "2024-07-30T14:03:09Z")
Blunderbusses looks less ans less interesting.
Hitting on 5+ ater moving with S3. Even a 10 Dwarf linę does 6-7 hits on a average which does little damage.
How do you guys Play with those? How big units you use?
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### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [30 July 2024 14:16 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/186 "2024-07-30T14:16:01Z")
That’s just not what they’re made for. Blunderbusses are made for stationary use, where you don’t suffer the negative modifiers for long range or multiple shots (so most of the time will hit on 4+) and ideally have volley fire.
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### Author:  [@MiSiO](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/MiSiO)
#### Post date: [31 July 2024 07:36 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/187 "2024-07-31T07:36:59Z")
I do use them this way. I can march into 9-10 dwarf line next turn to shoot at something 12". Then I can Windblast it and wait for it to come closer and shoot with a ton of dice. I guess I just had a bad luck playing against skirmishing elves and mounted chaos recently when I had no good targets or my targets were charging turn 2.
> [@Jasko](#):
>
> Blunderbusses are made for stationary use, where you don’t suffer the negative modifiers for long range or multiple shots (so most of the time will hit on 4+) and ideally have volley fire.
How bid a units should be? 10/15/20? Bigger units are hard to kill and You have to kill ALL of them to get points (those nasty 5 men Cav units with 1 horsemen left for 0VP) but when they are too big they are either ignored or all the focus is on them.
I was thinking 17ish models instead of my usual 20. This allows me to get Lore Familiar. Even 15 might unlock another 10 sneaky gits… Or at least Hellbound on Iron Daemon. Any Advice?
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### Author:  [@MiSiO](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/MiSiO)
#### Post date: [31 July 2024 08:57 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/188 "2024-07-31T08:57:07Z")
Hobgoblin Cutthroats - I use them with Khan as a 30ish strong unit (7 wide) to get some shooting. Ld10 and some CC with Khan and +4 combat resolution but…
Did You guys use the as super cheap drops like 10 archers strong? Maby 1-2 units to protect dwarf flanks and shoot a lot of arrows?
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### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [31 July 2024 09:44 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/189 "2024-07-31T09:44:30Z")
Blunderbusses get expensive fast. And with the drawbacks (short range, low S) I think it’s important to commit. So either I’d get them in very small Detachments, have them in a single rank to use them for S&S, or get a big unit (At least 16 maybe? Something like that) and build the army around it, namely having your enemy come to you and impede his movement with Dreadquake and Vortices (Phantasmagoria really shines here)
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### Author:  [@MiSiO](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/MiSiO)
#### Post date: [31 July 2024 12:08 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/190 "2024-07-31T12:08:48Z")
Magic Lore is key choice… I do like Elementalism for 3 reasons. Plague, Elemental Spirits and Windblast. You get buff to AP, You can block LOS to Your unit OR cast a template behind an enemy unit and THEN push in into the template with WIndblast…
Phantasmagoria is also great especially IF You can redirect Impetuous units with wolves.
I did not used Dreadquake yet. I have 2 blot throwers for solid shooting against problematic units. BUT I like the idea, It is a very expensive weapon too.
Would You give a bigger unit something like Ashen Banner? This cost like 2 dwarfs to take it.
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### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [31 July 2024 13:24 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/191 "2024-07-31T13:24:13Z")
Ashen Banner is worth the points against the right opponent. Blunderbusses can be shot quite comfortably from far away and they can’t do anything about it with their range 12 weapons, so Ashen Banner is a way of protecting them. Then again there are so many things where it just doesn’t apply (template weapons, magic …) And the weapons it does work against tend to be less deadly. It’s neither an auto-include nor a bust for me.
> [@MiSiO](#):
>
> Phantasmagoria is also great especially IF You can redirect Impetuous units with wolves.
It’s also very effective to place in front of some dangerous unit threatening a charge. They either get driven back with FBIGO or they might have to charge through dangerous terrain, meaning they have to use the lower of the two charge dice (making it more likely to fail) AND have to roll on dangerous terrain table. Overall I’m not the biggest fan of Dark Magic, but that spell is great.
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### Author:  [@MiSiO](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/MiSiO)
#### Post date: [31 July 2024 13:45 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/192 "2024-07-31T13:45:23Z")
> [@Jasko](#):
>
> Ashen Banner is worth the points against the right opponent.
Right opponent. This is hard to figure out in a tournament. IS there any other banner You consider? Razen banner maby? Lamasu’s Beard is great but You need a BSB. 5+ Ward is tasty especially if You can cover ID or another unit with it.
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### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [31 July 2024 14:01 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/193 "2024-07-31T14:01:45Z")
> [@MiSiO](#):
>
> Lamasu’s Beard is great but You need a BSB
Not necessarily, Infernal Ironsworn can take it on their own. 👍
Razor Banner is good on any unit, especially since AB stacks. Blunderbusses suddenly are a much bigger threat.
Rampaging Banner is good on Bull Centaurs
There’s always a use for the humble War Banner.
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### Author:  [@MiSiO](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/MiSiO)
#### Post date: [31 July 2024 14:20 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/194 "2024-07-31T14:20:00Z")
Infernal Ironsworn are s whole separate topic… Black Orc alternative.
Bull Centaurs - I have 6 waiting for some paint BUT I do not find good use for them. But they are one of my favourite units so I will paint them sooner or later.
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### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [31 July 2024 14:47 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/195 "2024-07-31T14:47:50Z")
Black Orcs are Core, that’s their main advantage. Ironsworn are superior in most other metrics. But since they are special choice, they are a major commitment towards a largely stationary infantry army.
Think of Renders like a unit of light chariots. They’re great on the flanks, or to support an offensive. They won’t win a grind over many rounds, but they’re great at breaking something on the charge and/or tie something down with their toughness.
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### Author:  [@MiSiO](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/MiSiO)
#### Post date: [6 August 2024 18:45 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/196 "2024-08-06T18:45:29Z")
Just realized that when your blunderbussiers (a unit of i.e. 16) get charged by i.e. a dragon they shoot 16xD3 lol. Fun.
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### Author:  [@ULFHEDNIR](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/ULFHEDNIR)
#### Post date: [7 August 2024 01:44 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/197 "2024-08-07T01:44:43Z")
Black orcs are also alot cheaper than infernal ironsworn and not much worse, i think they are a good meta option.
That said i haven’t used them yet
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### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [7 August 2024 05:30 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/198 "2024-08-07T05:30:24Z")
Indeed, that FAQ has big repercussions. There just was a tournament in the TSN Arena and a guy played a block of 40 Hobgoblins with bows. 40 shots on a S&S will even give a Dragon pause.
> [@ULFHEDNIR](#):
>
> Black orcs are also alot cheaper than infernal ironsworn and not much worse, i think they are a good meta option.
Oh no question! But Black Orcs are core and Ironsworn are special, so you don’t necessarily decide between those two. Ironsworn mainly compete with the Iron Daemon and war machines and Bull Centaurs.
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### Author:  [@MiSiO](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/MiSiO)
#### Post date: [7 August 2024 08:48 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/199 "2024-08-07T08:48:52Z")
I run ~32-34 cutthroats but I see a good tool against behemoths. If only steam tank was one :smiley:
You guys use Ironsworn as big blocks or units of 10ish guys?
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### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [7 August 2024 08:55 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/200 "2024-08-07T08:55:56Z")
I haven’t even used them yet 🙃 They _are_ a commitment.
I mean with all their special rules you def can make 10man units work, kind of going MSU style. But even 10 Ironsworn with only shields will set you back 200pts, even more with Command and magic items etc. I’d probably go for a little bit larger unit to protect those points better.
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### Author:  [@ULFHEDNIR](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/ULFHEDNIR)
#### Post date: [8 August 2024 01:39 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/201 "2024-08-08T01:39:02Z")
Can probably take a 5man detachment
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