# \[TOW\] Let's get competitive
**URL:** https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270
**Category:** Army List and Gaming Discussion
**Created:** [15 February 2024 20:17 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270 "2024-02-15T20:17:17Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [18 February 2024 15:54 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/21 "2024-02-18T15:54:21Z")
> [@bonesaww666](#):
>
> with our Hand Weapons negating their Wards
They don’t. Only the Ironsworns’ attacks.
> [@SorcererProfit](#):
>
> Oh, super easy. I probably auto lose.
Oh OK, well fair enough :wink:
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### Author:  [@Zoddtheimmortal](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Zoddtheimmortal)
#### Post date: [18 February 2024 17:57 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/22 "2024-02-18T17:57:50Z")
I think we need 1 big unit to hold a charge and maybe hild its own for a turn or 2.
A unit of 28 infernal guard can hold its own against most things. When you are under half the unit strength of the combat winners you are likely to flee. Bigger unit strength gives you time to counter charge. Maybe a unit of 40 hobbos could also do it to an extent. Harder to get vps from bigger units too
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### Author:  [@ULFHEDNIR](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/ULFHEDNIR)
#### Post date: [18 February 2024 19:40 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/23 "2024-02-18T19:40:39Z")
Agreed, some gobbos or Black orcs could do well as speed bumps
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### Author:  [@Trajan4200](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Trajan4200)
#### Post date: [5 March 2024 13:48 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/24 "2024-03-05T13:48:32Z")
Hi, there are more op combos in my opinion that werent mentioned here, what do you think about :
-Khan Hobgobelin - Ruby ring of ruin : Firebolter spam for 75 pts only (in a kamikaze stack of 20 gobs)
-Khan Hobgobelin - Breath of Hashut 70pts: , in a kamikaze stack of 20 gobs just to be annoying and its fun (used like a skaven warlock engineer)
-Black orc bigboss on chariot (with Obsidian Vambraces and additionnal weapon) : for 183 pts only you have a 6hp hero / lots of attack S5 / impact hits S5 etc and access to OP black orcs (hes not that fragile T5 and 4+)
-Black orcs are broken af and its a must have imo because they are so cheap for what they do.
-Same thing for K’daai Fireborns , they are cheap, “fast”, unbreakable, 3 atks s5 etc… a must have imo
-Bull Centaurs seems very good , i haven’t tried them yet
-Infernal Ironsworn are overpriced i wont ever take them
(sorry for the poor english , its not my main language)
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### Author:  [@Zoddtheimmortal](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Zoddtheimmortal)
#### Post date: [5 March 2024 18:02 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/25 "2024-03-05T18:02:51Z")
Some interesting ideas there. I like the hobbo in some archers with the magic ring
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### Author:  [@LordKrungharr](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/LordKrungharr)
#### Post date: [7 March 2024 20:09 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/26 "2024-03-07T20:09:23Z")
I haven’t looked at the Black Orcs yet, intriguing that we can take Orcs at all being Chaos. Or the goblins for that matter; need to read up on their lore a bit. Maybe then I’ll want them more.
I was reading about Terror, and see that the Tauruses and Lammasu have Terror AND Swiftstride. Those seem like a really good combo, as enemies have a good chance to Flee before a charge, and doesn’t Swiftstride add 3" to charges? Or is it just movment? Either way, if they can catch a Fleeing enemy on the charge, that’s an instant unit erasure isn’t it?
And I’ve learned about Monster Slayer now, so I know to try to avoid those types of enemy attacks :smiley:
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### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 09:03 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/27 "2024-03-08T09:03:00Z")
Yes, terror and swiftstride works like you said. Also if the charge target flees you don’t make a pursuit move with the lamassu/Taurus but try to complete your regular charge move.
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### Author:  [@chitzkoi](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/chitzkoi)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 10:16 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/28 "2024-03-08T10:16:25Z")
If you are on Discord DM me (same name there) and I would be happy to sort you out with copies of lore sources going back to the 90s, where the greenskin slaves concept originates.
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### Author:  [@Vacationist](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Vacationist)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 10:25 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/29 "2024-03-08T10:25:37Z")
Check out the bull of Hashut iconography on the OG black orc slaves, they were created, owned and outfitted by Chaos Dwarfs 👇
I’m putting together a unit of these fellows myself, I think they fit right in (plus, blorcs are vicious in this edition, oh boy)
Got really psyked about the idea of a big boss cruising around on a chariot as well - thanks for that idea @Trajan4200, and welcome - so I’ll figure that one out. I’m thinking maybe a chorf crafted chariot for a favored slave? Chaos chariot chassis…? 🤔
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### Author:  [@chitzkoi](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/chitzkoi)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 10:49 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/30 "2024-03-08T10:49:34Z")
@Tyranno does some great chaos dwarf work using Tomb Kings chariots, because of their bronze age stylings. And now those can be had much cheaper than before!
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### Author:  [@Trajan4200](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Trajan4200)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 12:33 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/31 "2024-03-08T12:33:45Z")
@Vacationist Thank you for welcoming me :smiley:
Still cooking the orc boss but im pretty sure its good to have him on a chariot or wyvern ^^.
Chaos chariot is a good idea for an infernal chariot chassis ! Go for it
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### Author:  [@ULFHEDNIR](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/ULFHEDNIR)
#### Post date: [8 March 2024 21:44 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/32 "2024-03-08T21:44:51Z")
The terror stacks well with leadership spells fyi :wink:
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### Author:  [@SorcererProfit](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/SorcererProfit)
#### Post date: [15 March 2024 02:35 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/33 "2024-03-15T02:35:36Z")
Closing the book on competitively using the Hellcannon. It’s much too much. It fails it’s Caged Fury test, goes apeshit and abuses you, it fails it’s misfire rerolls even if you babysit it with an Sorc and that’s a problem itself… it tethers a Sorc because you can’t give it Hellbound. Then there’s the actual output. So IF you get past theCF test at the beginning of turn AND you connect with your target you roll a 1 to wound for your center hole target and manage to scrape off a wound or two with the remaining hits. Force the Panic test. Actual game results as follows; They pass, They pass, they pass, they pass, they immune, they pass, they fail, they pass, they all die no test needed, they pass.
That’s the outcome of each test from the last 6 games. 18 turns minimum that it could fire and it produced 8 actual results.
That’s statistically dreadful for a 215pt Rare choice. I think it’s probably the worst performing unit in my list and I’m betting it’s the worst unit in our army. If anyone has any other results regarding the Hellcannon I’d love to hear them but it’s going back on the shelf for me.
I would literally rather field anything other than it at this point. Maybe it’s a string of bad rolls on my part but I’d rather be taking units that don’t require any of these rolls at all and therefore far more productive from a control standpoint if not a total output standpoint but probably actually is…
Someone tell me different. Caged Fury makes it volatile in close quarters and we can’t mitigate this test. It exists and I’ve taken BLOOOOOD! right in the rear on another unit in every game Iv’e taken it. Turn 2 today… right into the rear of my my anvil Ironguard right as they’re about to take a hit from a brick of Minos. That was game was for us and we both knew it. Seriously on the top of my T2 we shook hands because the Hellcannon literally crippled me that hard and our roll off confirmed it. His Ambush + Charge + Hellcannon BLOOOOOD ended the game for me. We also both agreed that I could’ve fought through 2 of 3 of those calamities but not all 3. In fact I was well prepared to accept and receive those chrages.
So in todays game I paid 215pts to give the game away on T2 after I was well in hand and in control of the game. A 215 timebomb liability that was my opponents win condition and it’s some flavor of this EVERY. SINGLE. GAME.
You can’t keep it close and you can’t leave it alone or keep it off on it’s own. It’ll get tagged, locked up and then it’s useless except maybe eating 1 chaff model a turn.
Competitively speaking the Hellcannon is dead too me. It doesn’t properly affect 3 armies. It’s far too volatile and resource dependent as well. The Dreadquake is better right off the bat just by being without Caged Fury. The debate about the Quake effect vs forcing Panic tests is F’ing moot imo because it’s A ) Cheaper and B ) Caged Fury Free C ) Hellbound ((and therefore freeing up your Sorc to go do Sorc things)).
That’s my results and analysis of Hellcannon.
Overcosted, unreliable, minimal ouput, forced Panic tests rarely payoff imo. Better spent points on ANYTHING ELSE.
Willing to listen to different results but so far mine has performed as spectacularly as the Hindenburg. Once quite literally when it Free At Last on T1 of it’s first game and destroyed a good bit of all my units.
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### Author:  [@Valkuk](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Valkuk)
#### Post date: [15 March 2024 22:38 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/34 "2024-03-15T22:38:10Z")
You don’t even get to reroll with engineers since it only works on war machines and the hellcannon is a behemoth
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### Author:  [@SorcererProfit](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/SorcererProfit)
#### Post date: [24 March 2024 18:38 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/35 "2024-03-24T18:38:28Z")
Hmmm… I thought I responded to this earlier. You are correct sir! IDK how I missed that. Yes. It makes it even worse. Such a waste…
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### Author:  [@LordKrungharr](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/LordKrungharr)
#### Post date: [26 March 2024 20:33 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/36 "2024-03-26T20:33:15Z")
I just bought a metal one with crew at Adepticon! Guess I can use it as a Dreadquake Mortar then…
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### Author:  [@Kharnak](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Kharnak)
#### Post date: [4 May 2024 00:44 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/37 "2024-05-04T00:44:45Z")
Is there any reason a black orc boss mounted on boar couldn’t join a unit of bull centaur renders?
That might be a nice use of him. Your Taur’ruk could have a bit more autonomy then too.
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### Author:  [@Vacationist](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Vacationist)
#### Post date: [4 May 2024 06:29 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/38 "2024-05-04T06:29:14Z")
He is doesn’t have the loner special rule, so it’s a no go. I know we’re searching for the meta in this thread, but I felt a bit of an involuntary objection to the idea of an orc riding side by side with the venerable temple guard 🤢
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### Author:  [@ULFHEDNIR](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/ULFHEDNIR)
#### Post date: [4 May 2024 10:07 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/39 "2024-05-04T10:07:46Z")
But i imagine him on a chariot with the dagger of malice and obsidian vanbrace would be a very killy missile
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### Author:  [@ULFHEDNIR](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/ULFHEDNIR)
#### Post date: [4 May 2024 10:13 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-lets-get-competitive/26270/40 "2024-05-04T10:13:06Z")
I can confirm that sorcerer prophet as well has iron deamons with helbound is strong in the meta.
Just played against the best tournament player i know and his empire army and did better against him than ever before thanks to those 2 units.
The unit of 10 cutthroats also paid for themselves. The magma cannon and infernal guard let me down and the wolfriders were good but were taken out by their dragon lvl 4 caster
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