# \[TOW\] Stone mantle and initiative or weapon skill dropping under 1
**URL:** https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463
**Category:** Army List and Gaming Discussion
**Created:** [16 March 2024 16:34 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463 "2024-03-16T16:34:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Anima](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Anima)
#### Post date: [16 March 2024 16:34 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/1 "2024-03-16T16:34:50Z")
Hey everyone,
what happens if the initiative or weapon skill value of a model drops to 0. The rule books say for strength, wounds and toughness you die, for weapon skill you got automatically hit, so the enemy does not need to roll hit dice risking to roll a natural 1. On the other hand is a model even allowed to roll for hits if it has weapon skill 0 in hope to roll a natural 6s. The rules say you roll to hit and consult the Hit chart. There are no zeros present.
And what about the initiative value does a value of 0 prohibits to fight? Rules say a model with characteristics of 0 has no ability whatsoever in what the characteristic represents. So no chance to be selected to fight or even cast assailment spells?
I ask because if we are allowed to take multiple stone mantles we can reach initiative values of 0.
For me it reads:
WS is 0 enemy auto hits, self no hit rolls allowed, but with I \>0 other actions in combat are possible e.g. casting assailments.
I is 0 no participation in fighting, but with WS \> 0 the enemy needs to normally roll to hit.
Please proof me wrong!
---
### Author:  [@Nicodemus](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Nicodemus)
#### Post date: [16 March 2024 16:50 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/2 "2024-03-16T16:50:13Z")
As I recall you can only take one magic item of each type on a model. You’re allowed to have multiple of the same item in the same army, but it shouldn’t be very easy to get a stat down to zero.
I guess a model with 0 WS would suggest it can’t attack normally. Regardless, if an attacker wants to strike a 0 WS foe they would still have to roll to hit, at which point the dice take over and a natural roll of 1 is still automatically a failed hit anyway.
---
### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [16 March 2024 17:30 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/3 "2024-03-16T17:30:04Z")
> [@Anima](#):
>
> WS is 0 enemy auto hits, self no hit rolls allowed, but with I \>0 other actions in combat are possible e.g. casting assailments.
> I is 0 no participation in fighting, but with WS \> 0 the enemy needs to normally roll to hit.
That is a good point, hadn’t considered it! I automatically added a „to a minimum of 1“ for the stone mantle but you’re right, with two stone mantles I can be 0. and I agree, a model with I0 does not attack on close combat (and therefore also cannot cast assailment spells!).
> [@Nicodemus](#):
>
> As I recall you can only take one magic item of each type on a model. You’re allowed to have multiple of the same item in the same army, but it shouldn’t be very easy to get a stat down to zero.
Not anymore, in TOW there are so called _extremely common items_ (they are marked with an \*). Not only can you have this item multiple times in your army, but even multiple times on the same model. And even more, you can also have another magic items from the same category on a model too! So for example: a sorcerer prophet with two stone mantles and a talisman of protection.
---
### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 11:19 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/5 "2024-03-17T11:19:00Z")
At least the “pass this test or die” spells are gone.
---
### Author:  [@Anima](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Anima)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 11:47 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/6 "2024-03-17T11:47:10Z")
Somehow this is quite a mess. I don’t think that with 0 initiative a model is part of the striking order. It would contradict the strike last rule as it would be a “super strike last”. For me it permits a model to be placed in striking order with the result not to be allowed to perform attacks or to even cast assailments.
The sentence “with characteristics of 0 has no ability whatsoever in what the characteristic represents” needs to be explained in more detail. Initiative represents the position in the striking order.
Also I see the same mess for 0 weapon skill for the proposed enemy auto hits and for the model itself that tries to attack with WS 0. So what is the order of actions during performing hits? First roll then consult the hit charts, then apply modifiers, then apply natural 1 or natural 6 ruling. Or roll and immediately apply the ruling for natural 1s and 6s, then consult hit chart and add modifiers? This is problematic as WS 0 has no entry in that chart. So is any hit roll with WS 0 an auto fail? That would be in consistence with the rule book saying that enemy will auto hit any model with WS 0?
Super unclear and I don’t like this at all. Best would be a ruling that any spell or piece of equipment can not drop a model’s WS or I below 1.
But I am still super happy to play Warhammer Fantasy again and even create a Chaos Dwarf army in the style of 4th/5th ed, cheers to that.
---
### Author:  [@Vacationist](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Vacationist)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 12:43 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/7 "2024-03-17T12:43:51Z")
Hey hey. So the WS 0 thing is pretty clear cut, if I understand your thinking correctly: on page 158 under Characteristics of zero, it says that a thing with WS 0 is hit automatically and all possible attacks made by it miss automatically. So that’s easy, unless I’m missing something.
As for A, you can’t attack if you have 0, makes sense.
S, T, and W - you are dead if you reach 0, makes sense.
At LD 0 you auto fail anything you need to roll LD for.
For I 0, you auto fail any tests, as mentioned. The big question is whether you take part in the initiative order at all, but it’s not specified either way. I would do I 0 attacks dead last, yes, after great weapons and after stomps even. That’s how slow he is.
---
### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 12:48 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/8 "2024-03-17T12:48:11Z")
> [@Vacationist](#):
>
> The big question is whether you take part in the initiative order at all
No, I’m definitely with Anima on this: If you have Initiative 0, you don’t attack in close combat. Not with your weapon, and also not with assailment spells. There’s no reason to assume this would be any different to all the other stats. That’s the price you pay for +2/+3 Toughness.
It’s easy to remember: _Strikes Last_ is at Initiative 1. Only one thing comes after striking last: not striking at all.
> [@Anima](#):
>
> Best would be a ruling that any spell or piece of equipment can not drop a model’s WS or I below 1.
WS0 is clearly mentioned in the rules, though, so that’s def someting which is possible.
But it goes even further: Can a stat be negative? Meaning can a Sorcerer-Prophet with Initiave 2 take three stone mantles and drop to Initiative -1? I’d say there’s even an argument to be made that it’s not possible, he does not have any initiative left to “pay” for the effect.
---
### Author:  [@Anima](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Anima)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 13:17 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/9 "2024-03-17T13:17:21Z")
> [@Jasko](#):
>
> But it goes even further: Can a stat be negative? Meaning can a Sorcerer-Prophet with Initiave 2 take three stone mantles and drop to Initiative -1? I’d say there’s even an argument to be made that it’s not possible, he does not have any initiative left to “pay” for the effect.
Characteristics are between 0 and 10 in some situations higher than 10, but never below 0. This explained and ruled along the description of the “Characteristics Profile”. But what 0 for each characteristics means is not fully explained for the phases, the sub phases and steps to proceed.
---
### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 13:37 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/10 "2024-03-17T13:37:34Z")
That would mean you cannot take a stone mantle if you’re already on initiative 0. I think that checks out.
IMO it’s clear for all stats:
M0: you cannot move
WS0: you cannot attack and are hit automatically
BS0: you cannot shoot
S0: you’re dead
T0: you’re dead
W0: you’re dead
I0: you cannot attack
A0: you cannot attack
LD0: you fail any LD test
---
### Author:  [@Anima](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Anima)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 13:48 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/11 "2024-03-17T13:48:25Z")
> [@Jasko](#):
>
> M0: you cannot move
> WS0: you cannot attack and are hit automatically
> BS0: you cannot shoot
> S0: you’re dead
> T0: you’re dead
> W0: you’re dead
> I0: you cannot attack
> A0: you cannot attack
> LD0: you fail any LD test
maybe this, I don’t know:
WS0: you cannot attack and are hit automatically - with I \> 0 still selected to fight (participate in striking order) to perform other actions (e.g. assailments)
I0: cannot fight (no participation in striking order) - with WS \> 0 enemy needs to roll to hit
Both are 0 (WS, I), please do not bring this model near any enemy 🙂
---
### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 14:19 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/12 "2024-03-17T14:19:13Z")
True, I0 is more “you cannot participate in the close combat phase at all” as opposed to WS0.
---
### Author:  [@Vacationist](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Vacationist)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 17:04 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/13 "2024-03-17T17:04:20Z")
I honestly think this is a rash ruling. It isn’t stated anywhere that this is the case. We’re kind of extrapolating on the rules for having WS 0, which is a different thing altogether.
I’d have a look at this blurb:
Highest to lowest. 0 is by all accounts lowest, but most importantly, it says “until everyone has fought”. This implies to me that a 0 initiative model would still get to fight, albeit after all the initiative 1 stuff like stomps and non-charging great weapons etc.
A spell like gathering darkness would via this ruling effectively completely incapacitate an entire unit of dwarf or similar I 2 units. That’d be wack. EDIT: Oups, it says to a minimum of 1. Scratch that, then.
Oh, and I think you should be able to take three stone mantles. You have -3 initiative, so if you charge 3"+ you end up at a mighty 2 initiative 😳
---
### Author:  [@Anima](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Anima)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 17:46 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/14 "2024-03-17T17:46:29Z")
Yeah I have considered it, but I am still wondering about the sentence “with characteristics of 0 has no ability whatsoever in what the characteristic represents” in the ruling that describes characteristics of 0. And for me the ability to be part in the striking order is defined by the initiative characteristics. That’s why I am guessing how to handle I 0 but also WS 0.
---
### Author:  [@Vacationist](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Vacationist)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 18:26 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/15 "2024-03-17T18:26:21Z")
WS 0 is golden, I don’t think we are in a disagreement about the mechanics surrounding that, since it’s pretty cut and dry.
> [@Anima](#):
>
> And for me the ability to be part in the striking order is defined by the initiative characteristics
You’re pretty much spot on, however:
The characteristic is defined as dictating the order in which a unit fights, not as a requirement for fighting in the first place.
---
### Author:  [@Anima](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Anima)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 18:48 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/16 "2024-03-17T18:48:26Z")
> [@Vacationist](#):
>
> The characteristic is defined as dictating the order in which a unit fights, not as a requirement for fighting in the first place.
and the rule describing what zero characteristic means handles each characteristic quite differently. If one wants to exaggerate it, 0 means you cannot be part of this order, as initiative represents/defines/dictates the order or the position in this order. So no ability whatsoever to be placed in this order. Again just guessing and I don’t like the idea that you have to strike last after all strike last ruled models…
---
### Author:  [@Vacationist](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Vacationist)
#### Post date: [17 March 2024 19:46 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/17 "2024-03-17T19:46:08Z")
I think you’re extrapolating the wording to a degree where you’re making up a rule that doesn’t exist.
Striking after I 1 attacks would indeed signify to me an inability to react to danger 🙂
For my part, I need to see it written that initiative 0 takes you out of the combat entirely, period. Otherwise I’ll refer to the RAW and treat the combatant as what he is: a model with I 0, along with the interactions that entails.
---
### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [18 March 2024 10:22 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/18 "2024-03-18T10:22:06Z")
Interesting aspects.
> [@Vacationist](#):
>
> A spell like gathering darkness would via this ruling effectively completely incapacitate an entire unit of dwarf or similar I 2 units. That’d be wack. EDIT: Oups, it says to a minimum of 1. Scratch that, then.
I think you inadvertently argue against yourself there. If Initiative 0 would indeed still be part of the initiative order, why should the spell stop at Initiative 1? As you rightly pointed out, there’s still a potential +3 charge bonus after all. I would again refer you to the _Strikes Last_ (sic!) special rule. That’s not I0, that’s I1. The slowest attack is at I1, there’s nothing coming after that.
> [@Vacationist](#):
>
> For my part, I need to see it written that initiative 0 takes you out of the combat entirely, period. Otherwise I’ll refer to the RAW and treat the combatant as what he is: a model with I 0, along with the interactions that entails.
If you go by RAW, then Anima already has the RAW for you: _If a model has a characteristic of ‘0’, it has no ability whatsoever in what the characteristic represents._ If Initiative order is called upon, a model with I0 simply does not take part. Like a piece of terrain.
I think there are a couple of questions which could be directed to [oldworldFAQ@gwplc.com](mailto:oldworldFAQ@gwplc.com)
1. Can Initiative, for any reason, be decreased to 0 or even below?
2. What happens if a model has Initiative 0? Does it strike after Initiative 1 or not all at?
3. Could a model with Initiative 0 still get a charge bonus to initiative?
4. If a magic item decreases a stat by 1, can this item be equipped if the stat is already 1? Can a character equip such an item and thereby voluntarily decrease his own stat down to 0 or below?
Personally my take on these would be
1. Characteristics cannot be nagative, they stop at zero
2. A model with I0 does not strike at all
3. No, a characteristic of 0 cannot be modified.
4. A model can voluntarily decrease his stat to 0 but not below.
I purposely framed (4) this cryptic as I don’t know how serious GW will take the “NO SUPPORT FOR LEGACY FACTIONS” thing, so mentioning Stone Mantle may be an auto-exclude. At least (1) and (2) should be of general interest though and might be worthwhile asking. At least I will send these questions.
---
### Author:  [@Horace](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Horace)
#### Post date: [18 March 2024 11:11 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/19 "2024-03-18T11:11:39Z")
Since it isn’t explicitly specified I would be more inclined to side with the Init O strikes dead last argument. The only written argument against it is.
> with characteristics of 0 has no ability whatsoever in what the characteristic represents”
Whilst it then specifies other characteristics and the effect of 0 from those attributes it does not mention Initiative
This then states that **all** models fight in descending I order, which I feel is more concrete RAW.
Clearly an FAQ would be most helpful though. It would not surprise me in the FAQ if they stated that their intention was I0 don’t get to fight
---
### Author:  [@Jasko](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Jasko)
#### Post date: [18 March 2024 11:13 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/20 "2024-03-18T11:13:28Z")
Why is _Strikes Last_ Initiative 1 and not Initiative 0 then?
---
### Author:  [@Horace](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/u/Horace)
#### Post date: [18 March 2024 11:14 UTC](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463/21 "2024-03-18T11:14:24Z")
Because GW wrote the rules? 🙂
In all fairness writing a rulebook of this size and having it scrutinised by thousands of rules lawyers must be tricky
[Next page](https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/tow-stone-mantle-and-initiative-or-weapon-skill-dropping-under-1/26463.md?page=2)