6th Edition Anti-Brettonian List 2000 pts

Hey folks,
I’d love to hear some thoughts on this list I put together. As per the subject, this list is made to take on Brettonians, especially their dreaded lance formations.

The idea is to use the dwarves as charge absorbers, thus their shields and hand weapons. The black orcs and bull centaur hero will act as counter chargers, as will any unengaged chaos dwarf unit.

Hobgoblin archers will act as screens and the artillery will (hopefully) slow down the oncoming lances and thin their numbers.

Thanks!

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Cheers mate, well met!

So the strategy on paper is sound. Take the charge with a big unit of well armoured infantry, then counter-charge.
It’s been a looong time since I played 6th edition rules, how well does redirecting work? Cause that would probably be my idea. Use multiple small, cheap, mobile units (hobgoblin wolf riders etc) to hinder the bretonnians from easily completing a charge and redirect them to your liking. Wasn’t the lance formation a little unwieldy? Gosh it’s been so long.

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100% agree with jasko here. He wants to hit your big blocks with his lances. Divert with hobbo big bosses and other rubbish small units. Hopefully you can get a flank charge off. Take some bolt throwers to pierce their armour. Watch out for pegasus knights charging your war machines. Its going to happen…

A good s5 blunderbuss hit while the brets are out of position should damage the unit a fair bit

Get as much great weapons as you can to cut through their armour.

They can pray and get a great ward save against strong hits too. I think you can only shoot war machines on a 4+ ??? Cant remember

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Thanks for the feedback!

So redirecting works as such- a unit can declare a charge against a viable target, prompting a charge response. If the charged unit flees, the charging unit can redirect their charge against a new target who was not previously a viable target. So, for example, if a unit of hobgoblin archers is blocking access (LOS and physical space) to a unit behind them, if they were to flee in response to the charge declaration, the charging unit could now redirect into the “newly” available unit.

Also, a charge can only be redirected twice, so if a unit oh hobgoblins flees, revealing another unit behind them, and that unit also flees in response, the charging unit now stops.

However, should they try to run down the hobgoblins, i.e. moving their full charge distance, that unit would be destroyed. Obviously that’s preferable to taking a full on charge head on vs my dwarves, but with movement 8" there’s a good chance they’d be able to collide with my dwarves, regardless. This would allow me to counter charge on my turn, since the “overrun” charge wouldn’t take place until my combat phase.

The downside is that I’d need to march those hobgoblins up fast in order to give enough room for the lances to fail their charges, since we don’t want to be overrun into. I’d kinda prefer to slow them via earthshakers if possible, rather than give them that extra charge distance.

Also, as great as they are, a unit of hobgoblin wolf riders ain’t cheap. It’s 110 pts for a bare bones unit ( still not crazy expensive or anything, don’t get me wrong). I’m expecting a minimum of three lances (most likely 2 KOTR and one errant), so getting hit by a charge most likely will happen. I’ve brought 2 units of hobgoblin archers to do just that (bait chargers and flee, hopefully preventing the charges), but I want to use all the tools I can to slow the lances.

Lances aren’t really that unwieldy, tbh. Their thin frontage means that, provided they don’t need to turn great than 45 degrees, they don’t suffer much from wheeling. If you get flying units behind them, it’s a WHOLE different story, however.

@Zoddtheimmortal I totally agree with the strategy of using rubbish small units, I just want to make sure I have sufficient blocks available for when the charges do hit, since (unless my magic and shooting phases go incredibly) they will at some point.

I’ve heard about the hobgoblin big boss thing before, but I’m confused- while they are cheap, they also take hero slots, which I only have 4 of. Regarding the bolt throwers, I’m really torn on them. I’ve done the math and they seem like a worse choice than the death rockets, even thought they’re cheaper and you can take 2 per special choice, but I could be entirely wrong. The big issue is the crappy hobgoblin BS and the ward save deflecting the initial hit 1/3 of the time.

I really, really want to take blunderbusses, but, unless the lance is somehow close but not engaged, they’re really not great. When charged, the blunderbusses’ shoot reaction will only hit the first rank of the unit, i.e. 3 models. S5 is awesome, I can’t argue that, but because it’s S5, the knights get a 5+ ward save. That means I need 2+ to wound (easy!), but then they need to fail a 4+ armor AND 5+ ward save (on only three hits).

I love great weapons for I2, M3 dwarves- I just need to make sure they can survive the lance charges, since I know I can’t redirect them all. Great weapon dwarves only get a 5+ save which is negated on the charge, so the knights will be hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s. An average lance might have 8 knight attacks and 7 horse attacks on a charge, meaning I won’t be hitting back and will need to pass a LD test at a fairly large negative. If I take shield dwarves, I instead have a 5+ save, so 1/3 of the wounds will be negated, allowing me a much easier LD test and possibility to even strike back. This is also why I feel the need to take a BSB hero, since he can allow me rerolls on failed tests.

I’m not sure about that shooting war machines on a 4+ thing, tbh. I know hits are randomized between crew and machine, but I don’t believe there’s anything in there about only being able to shoot them on a 4+. However, enemy warmachines affected by a the earthshaker can only fire on a 4+ (maybe that’s what you were referring to).

Thanks for the insight so far- it’s really appreciated!!!

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Its somdthing about brets conceding 1st turn, but bring fog or something, meaning war machines each only fire 50% of time.

I cant believe im making this up. Ive played every edition from 4th onwards. I could be confusing editions though…

Maybe it was a 7th rule…idk

So the 1 hobbo boss marches about 2inches from the lance formation at an angle so that when he charges and kills it the unit goes off to a corner somewhere, giving you 2 turns peace before it charges you again. I think Generally Dont flee, 50 odd points to send away 1 lance might give you the edge.

Good luck

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Exactly, that’s what I’ve been thinking too. You move a hero or a small unit (5 Wolf Riders are perfect for this, but yeah, 110pts is not nothing, and you would need at least two of those) in between the lance and your main unit and tilt it at an angle. Let the lance charge, so if the overrun, they will shoot past your unit, or they reform, and then you charge or blast them with Blunderbusses.

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I wish I could take 5 wolf riders, they come in minimum unit size of 10. :sweat_smile:

Also, sorry, but why would the knights move after killing the boss? If the hobgoblin boss is wiped out, the knights don’t have to overrun, they can just stay put. They’ll be facing at an odd angle, for sure, but that will at worst cost them a turn to pivot. :confused:

This could lead to an opportunity to nail them with a volley from the blunderbusses though.

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There might be something in 5th or 7th, but not in 6th (regarding fog).

The blessing is great, but not THAT great! :rofl:

True, they don’t have to overrun, should have said “so they cannot overrun [into your more worthy troops]”. If done right, there are a couple of possible outcomes with this tactic:

  1. They kill the hero / decoy unit in the turn they charge and overrun into nothing. In your turn, you have something ready to either charge yourself or blast them to pieces.
  2. They kill the hero / decoy unit in the turn they charge and stay put and get stranded in no-mans-land. In your turn, you have something ready to either charge yourself or blast them to pieces.
  3. Miraculously, your hero / decoy unit survives and gets broken, you will again flee in that initial direction, leaving the Bretonnians again with the choice of pursuing into nothing or getting stranded.
  4. Miraculously, your hero / decoy unit survives and the combat goes on for another turn. This is most dangerous for you, because now you definitely need to charge into the knights flank, because if they win combat in your turn, they can of course immediately charge again in their own turn.
  5. Somehow you just beat the Knights and kill them all or they break. Awesome! :cd2010:

So the problem is, you need to have multiple units in place in order to react to all the possible outcomes. And the right placement of that decoy hero / unit is key, it needs to be perfect. You need to be close enough to your own units to be able to shoot / charge next turn, but far away enough so the Knights can overrun / pursue into nothing. And of course you will have to be able to counter multiple Knight units. Concentrate your war machine fire on one and kill it before it even comes to it. A well places unit of Blunderbusses and a unit of Bull Centaurs are probably best equipped to deal with the Knights both when they pursued or stayed put.

Ah, damn it, sorry I wasn’t aware. Mhm yeah 10 is a lot, shame. 2x5 for 110 points would be actually fine.

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No worries at all! I’m very tempted by a counter charge unit of centaurs, but having two earthshakers to force halved movement on knights seems just too strong (in 6th they are both rare slots and I’m limited to two races per 2k pts).

I was hoping the bull centaur hero might fill the role, though he’ll be most useful on already engaged knights, since he’ll lose to combat res alone.

Also, fwiw, I really appreciate everyone’s feedback, even if it doesn’t seem like it. What I’m kind of gathering is that another play style with dawi zharr is a heavily mobile force with a few stationary gun units to punish baited enemies.

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All good, it did not even seem like you didn’t :slight_smile:
But yes, that play style is definitely good against armies which have to charge - Bretonnia, Chaos Warriors, Ogres, Orcs & Goblins and the like. If you use that army/strategy against Dwarfs, Empire or Skaven, it will probably backfire :slight_smile:

Ah yes, another thing I just didn’t think about :slight_smile: Mhm yes two Earthshakers will come in handy against those Lances. But then I would definitely suggest a unit with Blunderbusses. As your army stands now, you have 4 dedicated close combat units but only 20 Hobgoblin archers. And with the very slow Chaos Dwarf Warriors, pulling off these redirections etc is quite hard. I would field at least one unit with Blunderbusses, maybe even two. The nice thing is, even low model count units are good, since each enemy in the target zone is anyway hit on 4+, doesn’t matter if 5 models shoot or 50. Something like 10 Warriors in two ranks is a 10cm wide corridor with S4 hits. Not too bad! And a Blunderbuss costs as much as a bow for the Hobgoblins. So come to think of it, I would probably take the Hobgoblin bows away, that’s 60 points saved and equals 5 Chaos Dwarfs with Blunderbuss. 20 Bows will probably not even kill 1 armour save 2+ Knight, and if you go via the redirection-route, the Hobgoblins are supposed to die fast. Then decrease (or exchange) the two Chaos Dwarfs w/o magic banner in size to have one or even two units with 10-14 Chaos Dwarfs with Blunderbusses. Your biggest problem will be the Knight’s armour saves, but with S4 Blunderbusses is better than S3 close combat attacks. At S5 the ward save kicks in? Grrrr.

Quick example: 2 units of 19 Chaos Dwarfs w/ hand weapons plus 2 Champions and the 20 bows are 500 points (oh by the way - why are 19 Chaos Dwarfs + SB/M 210 points? I only get 191pts?). You could get 2x14 Chaos Dwarfs w/ Blunderbuss (+ SB/M) for 376pts. For the remaining 124 pts you could increase the size of the remaining Chaos Dwarfs w/ hand weapons by another 5 Warriors and get another 10 Hobgoblins and two Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers (it’s 125 pts, but your army is only at 1999 now :wink:). Or get even more Hobgoblin chaff. Or leave them their bows and hope they hit a Knight right in the eye :slight_smile:

Yes, on it’s own the lone Bull Centaur Hero will probably not win the combat. He could finish the job after a good Blunderbusses round, though.

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Has @HurinTheCursed made an appearance on this thread? I rarely @ people, but iirc he only plays 6th and he plays brets so he’s bound to have a really good grip on this problem…

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That would be super helpful!

In Ravening Hordes the Blessing meant enemy warmachines and missile troops each had to roll a 4+ to be able to fire; maybe that’s what Zodd meant?

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Maybe? :sweat_smile:

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It depends how your opponent plays.
Does he rush ?
Does he take the time to turn around your line ?
Does he combine cavalry charges with infantry ?
Does he prefer big fat units of cavalry or more smaller units ?

  • If he can combine charges on a unit, it’s dead, no matter what it is.
  • You need a BSB to hold the line just one turn. After that they lose the advantages of lance formation and lance strength bonus in charge
  • Keep a cheap 4-fronted ranked unit to defend 2 of your warmachines. Fast cav or 3 pegasi will have a hard time versus static CR. And as usual keep them spread rather than grouped.
  • Bretonnia lacks good ways to deal with fast cavalry and decreasing their movement superiority will be good for you. It can also deal with a trebuchet that can splat your best units. Finally, a flank charge of 18" moving wolf-mounted hobgoblins on a lance is dangerous even on his best units. You won’t kill anyone without hero but forcing ld-1 morale tests and panic tests on mostly ld8 expensive troops will give him hard choices. I would prefer them over the bull centaur hero.
  • Why a sword of might rather than a two-handed weapon on the CD hero ? same save, lower strength, more expensive, low chance to strike first anyway.
  • Flying terror is an option for the same reasons. And if you can flank/back charge a lance long enough to have ranked units to support, they’re done.
  • Don’t accept challenges from heroes if you can or take champions for that case. Bretonnians can make much better hero killers than their humble profile would suggest due to virtues and magic items.
  • I’m not sure you need offensive infantry like black orcs. They will lose if charged and even goblins can win against a kotr lance that has not charged (*except if there’s a hero) by virtue of static CR. Keep infantry cheap and numerous IMHO. No need for bows or heavy weapons, I’d rather have armor and shield (and it’s even useless for greenskins that are to be charged).
  • You could take a small unit of blunderbusses, but their target should be men at arm. It’s the best way for Bretonnia to generate static CR. They are the unit that will allow piercing your front, never alone but combined with a cav charge. If your greenskins can charge them, you’ll force your opponent to try dicy front charges. Unless cav charges the flank of your cheap units, presenting theirs ! But you can do without blunderbusses.
  • I usually like bait units fleeing charges but I’m not fully sure chaos dwarves move fast enough to take advantage of it against 16" moving cav. It seems more predictable to hold, flee, and have another unit charging behind. It’s also a way to isolate units as they arrive little by little.
  • Their magic is not devastating but difficult to knock out.
  • Bull centaurs are definitely a force that will frighten Bretonnian cavalry and trades quite well. The unit who gets the charge kills the other.
  • If you like unusual deployment, I would suggest putting earthshaker(s) and mobility on one side to delay half of their army and chase easy targets while most of your forces punishes the other half of his. Concentrate fire (except earthshaker) on character-lead cavalry units of his fighting flank. Use bait units to prevent combines charges at all cost or possibly direct a cav unit deep in difficult terrain / far from the action. Your big warrior units use shields to take the charge with general and BSB (but you’ll need to deal with heroes to avoid they wreak havoc) nearby. Have cheap ranked troops nearby to flank afterwards which implies 3 layers of checkerboard deployment with chaos dwarves in the middle.
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It was in 5th edition as well.

I knew you’d have some good points to make. Thanks for taking the time!

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