[Archive] 1000 - All shooting

themanbelow:

1* Daemonsmith Sorcerer + Enchanted Shield + 4+ ward + Pistol = 150

22 x IG (full command) with Blunderbusses + Gleaming Pennant = 421

1* Iron Daemon = 285

1* Magma Cannon = 145

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1001 Total

Probably don’t need to explain the tactics!

Want to get the mighty 60 shot ‘Goodnight Vienna’ roll! Thoughts & comments appreciated

(I did try a version of this this list this eve vs the New Empire & was reasonably impressed - Was a narrow victory to the CD).

MLP:

An interesting tiny list!

It seems to me like you’re playing a points denial game, the Magma Cannon is the easiest thing to kill.

I think I’d rather have a castellan than the demonsmith to make your Infernals Stubborn. Otherwise you could easliy lose a combat against static combat resolution.

I would find the Iron Daemon quite unmaneauverable I think you need to keep it on a flank pointed 45 degrees towards a spot a few inches in front of your Infernals. It’s very easy for the enemy to avoid and then they could gang up on your main unit.

An apt saying could be it’s a “hit and miss” list. If all your random shooting rolls come out good you win, if they’re bad you lose.

If it goes wrong you only get 22 blunderbuss hits the WHOLE game, Iron daemon & Magma Cannon missfire first turn.

I’d be intersted in hearing how this list performs though.

themanbelow:

An interesting tiny list!

It seems to me like you're playing a points denial game, the Magma Cannon is the easiest thing to kill.

I think I'd rather have a castellan than the demonsmith to make your Infernals Stubborn. Otherwise you could easliy lose a combat against static combat resolution.

I would find the Iron Daemon quite unmaneauverable I think you need to keep it on a flank pointed 45 degrees towards a spot a few inches in front of your Infernals. It's very easy for the enemy to avoid and then they could gang up on your main unit.

An apt saying could be it's a "hit and miss" list. If all your random shooting rolls come out good you win, if they're bad you lose.

If it goes wrong you only get 22 blunderbuss hits the WHOLE game, Iron daemon & Magma Cannon missfire first turn.

I'd be intersted in hearing how this list performs though.

MLP
Thanks and you're quite right it's mainly a points denail list, but with the idea that you have a lot of shooting so can do a lot of damage before any combats take place.  Once in combat you have the great AS and Parry and therefore I don't see the Castallen really being needed (esp at this points level).  Plus with the ID, as you mentioned, pointing to the front of your IG, you should be able to steam into the opposition, as long as you position it correctly, to help with CR.  Plus it's cannon is very effective (like it was against Demigryphs)

I'm interested to know what you mean about only getting 22 blunderbuss shots all game.  Perhaps I have been playing something wrong but Id like to know what you mean by this.

Back to the issue of the the Daemonsmith vs the Castellan.  I feel the Daemonsmith is crucial to this list because of the re rolls and that the need for the Castellan (who isnt very killy imo) is reduced because this is mainly a sit back and shoot army.

In the few games I've played already what I have found is that with a variety of different options, sometimes the army doesnt know what it is supposed to do and becomes fragmented.  For example; Bull Centaurs seem good but how well do they dove-tail with IG and war machines...not very is my inclination.

I may change the Magma for a Hellcannon, making the Daemonsmith naked ....to really make it hard to get points, whilst having something that can help out in combat.  

Thanks again for you comments, I appreciate it and do let me know what do you thought to my further comments.

As a relative novice (even to the whole game) I'm well aware that my 'strange ideas' may not work but should be fun trying them and the game against the empire was real fun.

If you want i'll keep you updated on how the list performs.

MLP:

You may be right about the daemonsmith. But as they’re blunderbusses you’ll want them in 11x2 ranks which means at least on the first turn you lose a bit of combat resolution and with no BSB or stubborn you could lose and flee on the charge before your Iron Daemon has countercharged. There’s plenty of units that could mess you up in combat and do that.

With the 22 shots a whole game: You only have 12" range so any unit can potentially charge you without being shot once(especially cavalry). They will then get stand and shoot from you but with your D3 multi shots you’ll only get 22 if you roll a one.

I would say you don;t need much on a daemonsmith at this level. especially if he’s next to a warmachine. Give him charmed shield should be enough.

Strange lists like this are how we find out new tactics though which is always good!

And yeah let me know how your battles turn out.

themanbelow:

You may be right about the daemonsmith. But as they're blunderbusses you'll want them in 11x2 ranks which means at least on the first turn you lose a bit of combat resolution and with no BSB or stubborn you could lose and flee on the charge before your Iron Daemon has countercharged. There's plenty of units that could mess you up in combat and do that.

With the 22 shots a whole game: You only have 12" range so any unit can potentially charge you without being shot once(especially cavalry). They will then get stand and shoot from you but with your D3 multi shots you'll only get 22 if you roll a one.

I would say you don;t need much on a daemonsmith at this level. especially if he's next to a warmachine. Give him charmed shield should be enough.

Strange lists like this are how we find out new tactics though which is always good!

And yeah let me know how your battles turn out.

MLP
I think I will now refer to you as mystic MLP...

Got tabled by High Elves with this list.  In summary:

HE 1st turn:  His bolt thrower dealt 3 wounds on Iron Daemon. Pushed all his troops up.

CD 1st turn: Stupidly moved my IG up a little.  Positioned ID to get ready for counter charge.  Killed 2 Phoenix Guard and my magma cannon killed 2 spear-men (only unit in range).

HE 2nd turn: In charge range of IG, with his chariot & spear-men. He gets in with both (double 6 for the Spear-men) and I declare a stand and shoot on the chariot.  Guess what?  As you predicted, I only get 1 on the D3 and manage only 3 wounds in total , letting it get the charge with only 1 wound remaining and at that point I knew it was game over.  2 charges, a banner, and no stubborn spelt disaster.

He also gets 2 more wounds on the train with the bolt thrower (That thing is seriously annoying).

So back to the combat, I get pummeled, losing 5 IG iirc.  I obviously kill the chariot on one wound, and he wins combat by 4 I think.  I fail leadership and throw a 3 for my flee.....= 1 dead unit (I wish I had taken your advice now!!!)

CD turn 2: I mess up my magma cannon by rolling another 2 and only getting one model in, so decide to re-roll and guess what?  I misfire and pop goes the magma cannon.  The ID kills another 2 Phoenix Guard.

So to cut a long story short, its all going terribly now and everything you said is coming true.

With no supporting attacks, eventually the ID gets into combat and dies with 5 wounds on it already and being charged by lots of his troops, means it was never going to end any other way.  The sorcerer dies after a couple of rounds of combat, and the game ends on turn 4 or 5 I think, with a tabling of the CD.

I don't know why but so far Ive really struggled with the magma cannon and seem to do much better with 2 deathshriekers.  I certainly miss the long range and I think that may have helped remove the bolt thrower.  I also think I miss a khan or two to get rid of those types of annoying things.

I want to persist with the blunderbusses as they served me well before, but as you suggested I think I will put a Castellan in there next time.  

I will probably try a list something like this (unless you have any new suggestions)...

1 Deathshrieker

1 Deathshrieker

1 Castellan with enchanted shield

22 x IG with blunderbusses (full command)

1 Khan with giant wolf and a spear

1 Khan with giant wolf and a spear

3X bull centaurs with standard

I make that 998 points in total.

MLP:

I’m sad to hear of your loss! I find High Elves a hard match up at low points though, those bolt throwers are devastating. Sounds like you did also have a little bad luck though which never helps the situation!

The new list is another interesting one! I like that you don’t have a daemonsmith but saying that I can’t help thinking he would be better than the two Khans. Stick him inbetween the two Deathshriekers and watch them cause loads of hassle.

I do think this list would do a lot better against that same HE army and probably a better list in general.

themanbelow:

I'm sad to hear of your loss! I find High Elves a hard match up at low points though, those bolt throwers are devastating. Sounds like you did also have a little bad luck though which never helps the situation!

The new list is another interesting one! I like that you don't have a daemonsmith but saying that I can't help thinking he would be better than the two Khans. Stick him inbetween the two Deathshriekers and watch them cause loads of hassle.

I do think this list would do a lot better against that same HE army and probably a better list in general.

MLP
Thanks for your reply.  The loss was annoying but strangely I still enjoyed the game and felt a couple of bad moves on my part, coupled with some terrible rolls made things hard from the onset.

...at one point on my iron daemon out of the 11 hits he got in (bloody re rolls) he managed 6 sixes.  Then on those, for my armour save of 3+ I managed to throw 5 1's and a 2.

Interesting on your comment about the deamonsmith.  I think i will take your advice, but the only thing is that now I am worried about war machines and chaff and the Khans seem to be the answer.  I will probably be facing dwarfs and woc in the not to distant future and was thinking the khans would be better against these armies (particulary the organ gun, war hounds and even to redirect a couple of the woc units).

Would you still recommend the change?

MLP:

That is bad luck with the Iron Daemon rolls!

If you use the Khans for war machine hunters I think the Twin Linked Deathshriekers trick should take them out well enough against dwarfs and I would say you don’t need redirectors against them either.

Against WoC the Khans could prove to be better as you will want the redirecting more.

If you have to use the same list against both armies then… it’s anyones guess!

Vardan Painkiller:

i’d suggest more blunderbusses, having 20is greatest asset of rerolls to wound, but losing 3 means u lose the bonus.

alternatively maby Destroyer instead of train?

Jaakko:

i'd suggest more blunderbusses, having 20is greatest asset of rerolls to wound, but losing 3 means u lose the bonus.
alternatively maby Destroyer instead of train?

Vardan Painkiller
You can't fit a Destroyer in a 1000 points game.

themanbelow:

Thanks.  I’ll prob go for the daemonsmith (and BSB on the Castellan) and see how that works out (I can always try the other combinations next time).

I forgot to mention that with Dwarfs, the opponent is likely to take miners, which took out my war machines last time, however hopefully the Bulls can deal with these.

Incidently with the IG do you suggest going 11 by 2 and putting the Castellan in the corner of the unit (and out of the way)?

MLP:

Thanks.  I'll prob go for the daemonsmith (and BSB on the Castellan) and see how that works out (I can always try the other combinations next time).

I forgot to mention that with Dwarfs, the opponent is likely to take miners, which took out my war machines last time, however hopefully the Bulls can deal with these.

Incidently with the IG do you suggest going 11 by 2 and putting the Castellan in the corner of the unit (and out of the way)? 

themanbelow
Definitely go 12 front rank and 11 second. It's the best way to get the wound reroll and all models firing. Probably doesn't matter too much where the Castellan goes.

You deathshriekers should take out the dwarf war mchines before bull centaurs even get near them :)

themanbelow:

Thanks.  I'll prob go for the daemonsmith (and BSB on the Castellan) and see how that works out (I can always try the other combinations next time).

I forgot to mention that with Dwarfs, the opponent is likely to take miners, which took out my war machines last time, however hopefully the Bulls can deal with these.

Incidently with the IG do you suggest going 11 by 2 and putting the Castellan in the corner of the unit (and out of the way)? 

themanbelow
Definitely go 12 front rank and 11 second. It's the best way to get the wound reroll and all models firing. Probably doesn't matter too much where the Castellan goes.

You deathshriekers should take out the dwarf war mchines before bull centaurs even get near them :)


MLP
Sorry I mean the dwarf miners, who invariably pop up behind my lines and just take out the war machines. Do you suggest keeping the bulls back to deal with this potential threat?