[Archive] 1500 Elf Killer list

Vogon:

Last week I had arranged a game with one of the guys at the local store. We had decided to have a bit of fun both of us taking Daemons at 1500points.

Unfortunately due to unforeseen circumstances the guy I�?Td arranged it with was unable to go so I had a pickup game in the store with a guy who plays high elves. As soon as he knew he was facing daemons he re-wrote his list to include all the Swordmasters he had in one big unit with banner of the world dragon and plonked an Archmage in there.

Needless to say I didn�?Tt win despite killing everything else he had.

This week I�?Tm having another game against him though this time I�?Tm taking my trusty Dwai Zhaar and as he�?Tll obviously be tailoring his army I wondered if you guys had any thoughts.

My first stab at an Elf Killer list is as follows

Lvl4 Sorcerer Prophet Lore of Hashut Talisman of preservation

Dark Castellan shield

18 IG Full command

10 IG Fireglaves

Magma Cannon

Bull Centaurs Shields Full command

K�?TDaai Destroyer.

Assuming the Big block of Swordmasters again send the K�?TDaai and the centaurs straight at them. Between them they should be able to do some decent damage especially if I manage toget Ash Storm off against them so any heroes in the front rank will be at the mercy of the K�?TDaai�?Ts flaming hits.

What do you guys think?

Cheers

Vogon

Bloodbeard:

Burn those snobs into the dirt. Mix some salt with the ash and make sure nothing ever grows where they were killed.

List looks good. I myself likes infantry a lot, and there ain’t much in your list. But that k’daii/centaur hammer sure is scary.

Only thing I would change: Never leave home without a battlestandard.

Skink:

Burn those snobs into the dirt. Mix some salt with the ash and make nothing ever grows where they were killed.

Bloodbeard
That's the sweetest thing I've read here in a while. When I used to play Warhammer frequently me and my buddies used to say "Elves out of Fantasy."
Only thing I would change: Never leave home without a battlestandard.

Bloodbeard
Again, agreed. Maybe change those Fireglaives into something else?

Vogon:

I�?Tve got to be honest but I�?Tve never played using a battle standard.

I always find by the time I have all the toys I want I�?Tm out of points.  I�?Tve never regretted it and I�?Tve never seen one really make much of a difference to a game.  

Fireglaves are too useful to leave out in my opinion.  Having them in the list is great especially if you roll Watchtower and put them in the building.  They�?Tre nigh on unshiftable especially against squishy T3 elves :)  
If you don�?Tt roll watchtower they still pretty good at defending the war machines and Sorcerer, I actually wish I had points for more.  Having said that what would you switch them to?

Cheers

Vogon

Edit: what in the High Elf list should I be afraid of and how do I counter it? If you knew you were facing Chaos Dwarfs what would you take?

TheFNG:

So High Elves are my first army, and I’m sorry you ran into an a**hat who tailored his list so heavily against your Daemons. Its not even fun at that point.

Now to your question. If I were bringing my high elves to fight you, I’d bring 2 Frostheart phoenixes. Their attacks are magical, magma cannons will only wound on a 6 to them and they have a 5+ Ward, they’ll eat up your destroyer. They’d also fair pretty well against your centaurs. If i don’t want to tie up my phoenix on your destroyer then i’ll bring ellyrian reavers for the fast cav and just let you frenzy yourself off the board minimizing the damage you can do to me with it, and allowing me to focus my points on your other units. 95 points to tie up 325? easy peasy.

I’d also bring my Archmage with Shadow magic as pit of shades will devastate your infantry blocks. I’d also throw out the swordmasters and bring a big bus of Dragon Princes for the 2+ Ward against flaming.

My advice to you is to bring the Chalice. If he’s going to play dirty, then you should feel free to as well. Also, i’d bring 2 death shriekers instead of the magma cannon. you’ll have to find some points somewhere for it, but against T3 elves the template will do more damage than the magma cannon. You don’t need D3 multiple wound hits from the magma cannon. Also the single target round from the deathshrieker will have a better chance of taking out the phoenix before it can tie up your destroyer.

Truthfully, if he brings the swordmasters with banner again then he’s a fool and you should have no problem. A good high elf player will bring lots of dragon armor wearing characters and units to a fight against chaos dwarfs.

One last thought, i’d fit in a daemonsmith somewhere so i can lob Fireball at his archers, spearmen, or fast cav. An easy way to deal with his core.

Skink:

Edit:  what in the High Elf list should I be afraid of and how do I counter it?  If you knew you were facing Chaos Dwarfs what would *you* take?

Vogon
The Archmage. No, honestly, the Archmage is a pain in the rear. Try to whack him as soon as possible.

Then watch out for any brick of Lions or Sword Masters, they can dish out an orrendous amount of ASF attacks (with decent WS), if ignored they will approach pretty fast and they can (potentially) knock out even the Destroyer. Reason for which you shoudln't charge them unless they're less than 20 in number.

Speaking of which, the Destroyer is your greatest ally. It will act as a bulldozer against everything your opponent will send you. No, honestly, against ANY kind of Elves this thing is a blessing. HOWEVER, watch out for:

-Ellyrion Reavers & Eagles: They will taunt the Destroyer who in turn will have to charge them (because of frenzy)... You know the rest.

-High Elf Noble on Elven Steed with Dragon Armor: 2+ WS against fire.

-The Phoenix. He will have one. And it will be an utter pain in the rear, doesn't matter if in Ice or Fire version. The former will make your troops drop 1 S point and ASL. The latter will have a WS against fire and can (very annoyingly) resurrect when slain.

If I were you I would: Use everything you have to kill the Phoenix & the Archmage turn one or two. Use Fireglaives to deal with those pesky redirectors. Use the Magma Cannon to weaken the big fighting brick, then firebomb it with Destroyer & Bull Centaurs.

Finally, you could drop the Fireglaives for a Deathshrieker. Personally I love it, a S8 multiple wounds shot that can reroll the artillery die can potentially kill a Chariot/Monster/Bolt Thrower per turn!

REMEMBER that the K'daai's attacks aren't magical, so his BSB can wave his Dragon whatnot banner as much as he likes before being squished to a juicy red pulp.

TheFNG:

Skink makes a good point about the priorities, but just remember that High Elves BSBs and combat lords have access to 10pt 2+ Ward Saves against fire in the form of Dragon Armor that doesn’t take away any points for magical items. That leaves points for Ogre Blade, Crown of Command, Star Lance, Shield of the Merwym, etc…

Magma Cannon is going to be OP against High Elves. None of them have multiple wounds, and the Deathshrieker will hit far more of them, especially if you couple it with a daemonsmith with lore of fire. Alternatively, you could use lore of metal if he brings a cavalry heavy army list which high elves can easily do. Truthfully, the Chalice is your best bet. Cast your big spell, invoke the chalice, and watch him cry. Then throw your dice at his first spell during his magic phase, and invoke the chalice to watch his power dice go bye-bye.

If he’s bringing the banner, then you have every right to bring the chalice.

Honeym123:

Burn those snobs into the dirt. Mix some salt with the ash and make nothing ever grows where they were killed.

Bloodbeard
Cathago?

Vogon:

Thanks guys.

I’ll have a think about the chalice. It’s another thing I’ve never used before but I’ve heard nasty things about it :hashut

I do have a Deathshrieker but I always thought that the Magma Cannon was more reliable but I think on balance I’ll give it a try in place of the Magma Cannon this time. I’d like to bring both but if I do I’d need to drop either the Bull Centaurs or the Destroyer.

I’ve realised that I can’t actually swap the Fireglaves out as I need them for minimum core and I don’t have any other core finished to replace them with (apart from more Fireglaves)

The Dragon Armour could be a problem I’d forgotten about that as he didn’t have anything equipped with that last game (no Dragon princes and both his characters were mages)

Hmm plenty to think about there

I shall have a bit of a play around with the list and post a version 2 tomorrow.

Thanks

Skink:

ve multiple wounds, and the Deathshrieker will hit far more of them,

TheFNG
Granted, fully agree with this. The point in having a Magma Cannon is that this beauty is NOT going to use the Daeonsmith's reroll (unless it misfires). I mean, if you position the template about 2-4 inches in front of a unit and then roll the artillery dice, you are ALWAYS going to hit stuff. This means that now you can use the precious re roll with the Deathshrieker and kill that damn Phoenix. Damn (sorry TheFNG), I hate Elves with a passion...

Bloodbeard:

I�?Tve got to be honest but I�?Tve never played using a battle standard.

Vogon
Never played a game where I didn't use it (only played four though). Been used for both LD re-rolls and giving me that extra point to win combat resolution.
So High Elves are my first army...

TheFNG
You leave some very nice advise. Good to see an elf on the stunty side.
Burn those snobs into the dirt. Mix some salt with the ash and make nothing ever grows where they were killed.

Bloodbeard
Cathago?


Honeym123
Yep. Properbly my favourite "I'm the biggest Dickinsian" statement in the history of Dickinsians and statements.

Vogon:

List version 2

Sorcerer Prpohet Lvl4, lore of Hashut, Talisman of Preservation Chalice of Blood and Darkness

Dark Castellan BSB Ironcurse Icon

15 IG Full Command

10 Fireglaves

3 Bullcentaurs Full Command, Shields

Deathshrieker

K�?TDaai Destroyer

I thought in light of the advice here I�?Td give a BSB a whirl. So my IG will be stubborn with a reroll :slight_smile:

Cheers

Vogon

Skink:

I would drop the Command on the Bull Centaurs and give them a second hand weapon. 3 extra attacks can work wonders against low T enemies (such as elves). And again, I would get rid of those fireglaives for a second Deathshrieker or a Magma. Also, are you going to deploy the Prophet next to the Artillery (for rerolls) or in the IG unit?

Vogon:

I’ll probably have the Sorcerer Prophet in the Fireglaves and close enough to the Deathshrieker to benefit from the re-roll.

The list currently stands at exactly 25% core so I can’t drop the Fireglaves (I also only have one deathshrieker model)

Cheers

Vogon

TheFNG:

I think you may have too many points on the Sorc-Prophet. If i’m correct, you may have to drop to level 3 which at 1500 points is still plenty.

Against any elves I agree with Skink, drop the shields and command on the Bull Centaurs. A musician for quick reforms is fine, but save the other points and give them the additional hand weapon. S4 will chew through most High Elf units. Focus your bull centaurs on Ellyrian Reavers and Great Eagles if he brings them.

Also, quick note on Ash Storm. If he brings a banner unit, make sure to get this off on it. The banner won’t prevent them from taking dangerous terrain tests (terrain tests are NOT magical, so the ward save doesn’t come into play), and you can hopefully immobilize his key unit while focusing your killing power on picking up easier points from chaff, any core units, etc.

About your fireglaives, I actually liked when you had more of them. S5 means that most High Elf units will get no Armor Save at all, and with a 4+ Armor Save already the difference between a 3+ and 4+ Armor save against S3 High Elves won’t make much difference. S5 Swordmasters are going to slice and dice the first round of combat regardless so the more stand and shoot reactions you can take (the more ranged attacks you can make period, really) the better! Fireglaives aren’t magical wounds, just flaming so he won’t get a Ward Save. You’re going to hit last regardless and the +1S will eliminate his armor saves completely.

Vogon:

I think you may have too many points on the Sorc-Prophet.  If i'm correct, you may have to drop to level 3 which at 1500 points is still plenty.  

TheFNG
damn you're right, I'll have another look at that. I think I'd prefer to keep the lvl4 as it improves the chance of getting Ashstorm.
Against any elves I agree with Skink, drop the shields and command on the Bull Centaurs.  A musician for quick reforms is fine, but save the other points and give them the additional hand weapon.  S4 will chew through most High Elf units.  Focus your bull centaurs on Ellyrian Reavers and Great Eagles if he brings them.
I'll have a bit of a think about that. I try to run purely WYSIWYG and my Bull Centaurs are modelled with shields and command. I can certainly see the advantage and may have to think about this set up for the next ones I get. Magnets may be our friend here :)
Also, quick note on Ash Storm.  If he brings a banner unit, make sure to get this off on it.  The banner won't prevent them from taking dangerous terrain tests (terrain tests are NOT magical, so the ward save doesn't come into play), and you can hopefully immobilize his key unit while focusing your killing power on picking up easier points from chaff, any core units, etc.  
If he bunkers his Archmage in a banner unit it's going to be the focus of any and all castings of Ashstorm and then any flaming attacks I have available. The ward save won't protect against them either.
About your fireglaives, I actually liked when you had more of them. S5 means that most High Elf units will get no Armor Save at all, and with a 4+ Armor Save already the difference between a 3+ and 4+ Armor save against S3 High Elves won't make much difference.  S5 Swordmasters are going to slice and dice the first round of combat regardless so the more stand and shoot reactions you can take (the more ranged attacks you can make period, really) the better!  Fireglaives aren't magical wounds, just flaming so he won't get a Ward Save.  You're going to hit last regardless and the +1S will eliminate his armor saves completely.
I like my fireglaves for this reason too but at 1500pts one can't have everything :)

Cheers

Vogon

Onyx:

Yeah I don’t know about the IF with HW/Shield against High Elves. Doing quick calculations they get eaten up by any of his combat regiments pretty fast. On the other hand elves just ASK for getting shot to pieces by blunderbusses. So I’d try something like this:

Stand and shoot against Swordmasters with the below mentioned unit of Blunderbusses kills 14 elves.

EDIT: Pure evil variant: Equip the prophet with the folding fortress. Maybe then change the blunderbusses to fireglaives.

1 Lord: 345 Pts.   23.0%
1 Hero: 147 Pts.   9.8%
1 Core Unit: 438 Pts.   29.2%
2 Elite Units: 245 Pts.   16.3%
1 Rare Unit: 325 Pts.   21.6%

  1 Lord    

Sorcerer-Prophet
+  Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Chalice of Blood and Darkness
+  Lore of Hashut
- - - > 345 Points

  1 Hero    

Infernal Castellan
+  Shield
+  Luckstone, Dragonhelm
+ Battlestandard Bearer
- - - > 147 Points

  1 Core Unit    

23 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard, Hailshot Blunderbusses, Musician, Champion, Pistol
- - - > 438 Points

  2 Elite Units    

Magma Cannon
- - - > 145 Points

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher
- - - > 100 Points

  1 Rare Unit    

K’daii Destroyer
- - - > 325 Points

Total Points The Legion of Azgorh : 1500

Vogon:

Thanks for all the input guys.

The game is tonight so I’ll post a final list and battle report tomorrow :slight_smile:

Cheers

Vogon

TheFNG:

Onyx and I are definitely in agreement on the shooting. Regardless though, I am REALLY looking forward to your batrep. These being my two favorite armies, I am keen to hear how it goes. I actually feel like High Elves are one of the toughest match ups for Chaos Dwarfs. The ward against flaming is really killer, the re-rolls to hit just add insult to injury when it comes to how slow CD strike back, access to Shadow and Death magic, and a bunch of great cavalry to deny Stomp/Thunderstomps really make it tough.

I honestly expect the Bull Centaurs to be the MVPs for you Vogon. Great armor saves and high toughness mean they should survive the first round of attacks and start melting faces against low armor save, low T elves. I know that if I were playing you with an optimized list, I’d focus fire on the BC and let my dragon princes do the rest.

Good luck!

Vogon:

Thanks for all the advice guys.

In the end I went for the Magma Cannon because although on the face of it it was “wasting” the D3 multiple wounds it was killing on 2+ pretty much anything except heavy cavalry.

Battle Rep here

http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=13725

Cheers

Vogon