[Archive] 2,400 points 8th edition WHFB

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1

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund:

Hi all, I’ll be playing in a 8th edition event in May, need some list advice

Lords:

Level 4 Prophet, Black Hammer, Mask of the Furnace, pistol, Lore of Hashut

Heroes:

Level 2 Daemonsmith, pistol, dispel scroll, Lore of Fire

BSB Castellan, fireglaive, shield, Banner of Slavery, Ruby Ring of Ruin

Core:

(2) 20x Hobgoblins, bows

27x Infernal Guard, fireglaives, full command, Banner of Swiftness

Special:

(2) 3x K’Daai Fireborn

Rare:

Dreadquake Mortar, hellbound, slave ogre

K’Daai Destroyer

I will probably also be doing doubles Storm of Magic games, so I figure taking the Sorceror-Prophet is worth it (plus I love the Lore of Hashut).

Thoughts?

2

Jasko:

Hi!

Let’s see, I have a couple of questions/remarks.

1) Why did you go for lore of fire for your Daemonsmith? I find it the worst of the three choices. Metal is generally a great lore and death is especially nice with Chaos Dwarfs, I mean spirit leech alone with LD9 is very, very good. You’ll have the advantage against most opponents!
2) Why give the BSB a shield, he cannot use it in close combat and doesn’t need it against shooting if he is in the fireglaives unit.
3) 27 Infernal Guard is a very large block, and they are very expensive to just fill ranks. Maybe split them up in two smaller units? Are you planning to field them as a horde?
4) What is your general battle plan? Your Fireborn need to get into combat fast, or they’ll die off due to burning bright. Yet you have two big units of hobgoblin archers and another very large shooting infernal guard unit, they would rather stay back a little. I would give the hobgoblins shields. They are pretty bad at everything, with shields and parry saves they can at least be some kind of tarpit.
5) In the same idea, banner of slavery? well, immune to psychology is nice enough, but there are way better magic standards. Or skip that and give the Castellan some decent protection. I mean he is the closest thing you have to a decent fighter, and as a BSB he will get challenged. Give him a 4+ ward save and maybe a potion of strength or speed, so he stands a chance in close combat.
edit
5.2) Ach, silly me, I completely overlooked that you also gave the BSB the Ruby Ring of Ruin, well that doesn’t work anyway, if the BSB has a magic standard, he cannot have any additional magic items. It still stands. Give him the talisman of preservation (45pts) for the 4++ ward. He would also benefit from the dragonhelm, giving him the 3+ Armour save in CC and 2++ against flaming attacks. (yes, he already has 5++, but that’s not that great). The remaining 20pts can be spend nicely on the potion of strength, S8 is very nice. Or just potion of speed. Or you leave it at the two items. You don’t need the ruby ring of ruin. You already have two wizards on the table, so you’ll need any power dice you can get your hands on.
edit
6) Again on the Fireborn: So you’re planning on field two units with three Fireborn each? You might want to consider one unit of 6. The reason is again the burning bright rule. Three Fireborn have a total of 6 wounds. And starting on turn two, there is a 33% chance each round (!) that you lose an average of two wounds - or one full Fireborn! So if you have two units, that stacks and you roll twice, once for each unit. If they are all in one unit, you only roll once for the whole 12 wounds.

3

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund:

Why did you go for lore of fire for your Daemonsmith? I find it the worst of the three choices. Metal is generally a great lore and death is especially nice with Chaos Dwarfs, I mean spirit leech alone with LD9 is very, very good. You'll have the advantage against most opponents!
Yeah I have to agree, I dunno I felt like I needed chaff killing at range, and maybe the buff spells would help. But you're right, the more I look at Death, the more I am amazed. It's such a cool toolkit, even in Purple Sun is going to make people hate me haha if I roll it up. So I will switch him to Death :)
2) Why give the BSB a shield, he cannot use it in close combat and doesn't need it against shooting if he is in the fireglaives unit.
I have points leftover, but I have changed things up a bit now (see below for redone list). Totally agree, he's not ever using it.
3) 27 Infernal Guard is a very large block, and they are very expensive to just fill ranks. Maybe split them up in two smaller units? Are you planning to field them as a horde?
Running the math, Ironsworn work out to be the same in points but don't have a gun. I figure the fireglaive shots will help out more (especially with the little trick I found out that naptha bombs reduce Stand and Shoot to 6", thus negating long range penalty for the fireglaives). They're my mage bunker so really just there to keep the Prophet and Daemonsmith alive while I spell sling. Yeah start out 10 wide (unless I think I'll be charged Turn 1), then contract with a reform if I'm expecting to be charged.
4) What is your general battle plan? Your Fireborn need to get into combat fast, or they'll die off due to burning bright. Yet you have two big units of hobgoblin archers and another very large shooting infernal guard unit, they would rather stay back a little. I would give the hobgoblins shields. They are pretty bad at everything, with shields and parry saves they can at least be some kind of tarpit.
Yeah Fireborn are going to zip up a flank as fast as they can, draw fire and just be generally annoying. They'll also threaten flank charges into whatever the enemy send to deal with the Infernal Guard bunker.
Oh sorry I did give the Hobgoblins shields, just didn't specify. Their job is to guard my flanks and prevent the Infernal Guard from being surrounded. I fully expect them to die most games. I did try writing my lists without Hobgoblins, but Infernal Guard are quite literally hellishly expensive, and MSU didn't appeal to me.
5) In the same idea, banner of slavery? well, immune to psychology is nice enough, but there are way better magic standards. Or skip that and give the Castellan some decent protection. I mean he is the closest thing you have to a decent fighter, and as a BSB he *will* get challenged. Give him a 4+ ward save and maybe a potion of strength or speed, so he stands a chance in close combat.
Yeah I do like making the chaff blocks Immune to Psychology. That said, I am thinking of taking like Razor Standard or Eternal Flame instead. With the LD10 re-roll Leadership bubble from the Infernal Guard, they should hold. I was taking the Banner of Slavery as extra insurance, but he is a pretty decent fighter. Could switch to great weapon and Armour of Destiny probably.
5.2) Ach, silly me, I completely overlooked that you also gave the BSB the Ruby Ring of Ruin, well that doesn't work anyway, if the BSB has a magic standard, he cannot have any additional magic items. It still stands. Give him the talisman of preservation (45pts) for the 4++ ward. He would also benefit from the dragonhelm, giving him the 3+ Armour save in CC and 2++ against flaming attacks. (yes, he already has 5++, but that's not that great). The remaining 20pts can be spend nicely on the potion of strength, S8 is very nice. Or just potion of speed. Or you leave it at the two items. You don't need the ruby ring of ruin. You already have two wizards on the table, so you'll need any power dice you can get your hands on.
Yeah good point, I re-read the entry today and discovered exactly that, so Ruby Ring is gone now. Okay I'll take Talisman then.
6) Again on the Fireborn: So you're planning on field two units with three Fireborn each? You might want to consider one unit of 6. The reason is again the burning bright rule. Three Fireborn have a total of 6 wounds. And starting on turn two, there is a 33% chance each round (!) that you lose an average of two wounds - or one full Fireborn! So if you have two units, that stacks and you roll twice, once for each unit. If they are all in one unit, you only roll once for the whole 12 wounds.
Yeah agreed, I've come to the same conclusion. So now they're a 6-strong block.

Anyway, see below for my amended list. Let me know of any other issues you can see:

Lords:

Level 4 Prophet, Mask of the Furnace, Black Hammer, Lore of Hashut

Heroes:

Level 2 Daemonsmith, naptha bombs, Chalice, Lore of Death

BSB Castellan, great weapon, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Preservation

Core:

27x Infernal Guard, fireglaives, standard bearer w/Banner of Speed, musician

(2) 20x Hobgoblins, shields, bows

Special:

6x K'Daai Fireborn

Rare:

Dreadquake Mortar, hellbound, ogre

K'Daai Destroyer

2,399 points

My alternative to this drops the Dreadquake and Destroyer for two Hellcannons and I pump up the fireglaive bunker to 37. Another option I'm considering is dropping hellbound from the Dreadquake and the Destroyer, and just taking another 6x Fireborn (common consensus seems to be that the Destroyer is fun but a little too easily baited due to auto-Frenzy).

Battle plan wise I want to advance to the mid-field and bait charges, then hit people in the flanks with my faster units. Artillery soften up enemy mage bunkers and hit enemy artillery as well (I'm expecting a lot of Wizards at the event because we're doing Storm of Magic doubles as well). At least in 8th cannon spam isn't a thing (Empire is capped at 2 and I think Dwarves usually only take 2 as well).
4

Jasko:

Yeah I have to agree, I dunno I felt like I needed chaff killing at range, and maybe the buff spells would help. But you're right, the more I look at Death, the more I am amazed. It's such a cool toolkit, even in Purple Sun is going to make people hate me haha if I roll it up. So I will switch him to Death :)

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
Haha yeah the Purple Sun is hated throughout :) You could run into trouble casting it with a level 2, though. I would definitely swap one spell for Spirit Leech, it's just too good with LD9. Soulblight is always welcome and Doom and Darkness goes great together with a Hellcannon, should you decide to get one.
Running the math, Ironsworn work out to be the same in points but don't have a gun. I figure the fireglaive shots will help out more (especially with the little trick I found out that naptha bombs reduce Stand and Shoot to 6", thus negating long range penalty for the fireglaives). They're my mage bunker so really just there to keep the Prophet and Daemonsmith alive while I spell sling. Yeah start out 10 wide (unless I think I'll be charged Turn 1), then contract with a reform if I'm expecting to be charged.

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
Wait, what do you mean about the Naphtha Bombs and the long range penalty for the Fireglaives? It doesn't change that. You measure the distance to the target unit at the moment they declare the charge. If they are 10" away for example, your Fireglaives will shoot long range and the Naphtha bombs are treated as if the enemy would be 6" away, so also long range. The only advantage the Naphtha have is that you can also use them if your enemy is 1" away or so, the Fireglaives not. And all in all I'm not really impressed by the bombs, D3 S3 hits are not that great, it will almost always be in long range, and the Daemonsmith pays a hefty 15pts for that. I'd go for the pistol, 12" range, also quick to fire, S4 AP hit, 10pts cheaper.

*edit*
Oi, there you go, just re-read that paragraph on p17 in the rulebook, you're absolutely right! Enemy is treated as within 6", that means short-range for the Fireglaives. That is indeed very interesting! And of course also doesn't work with the pistol. I have to re-think some of my lists ;)

**edit**
This is all kinds of interesting! Really great spot, thanks for enlighten me! You could also give the Naphtha bombs to the overseer. Yes, you lose one Fireglaive shot when doing stand & shoot, but he only pays 5pts for the bomb, not 15. And you gain the shot back by giving the Deamonsmith a pistol ;)

***edit***
I added this (properly credited obviously) over at the Legion of Azgorh tactics page on 1d4chan. You can also check that out, lots of infos on list building etc.
Yeah I do like making the chaff blocks Immune to Psychology. That said, I am thinking of taking like Razor Standard or Eternal Flame instead. With the LD10 re-roll Leadership bubble from the Infernal Guard, they should hold. I was taking the Banner of Slavery as extra insurance, but he is a pretty decent fighter. Could switch to great weapon and Armour of Destiny probably.

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
Agreed, 12" LD10 bubble with re-rolls should be plenty to have the Hobgoblins stand their ground.
Anyway, see below for my amended list. Let me know of any other issues you can see:

Lords:

Level 4 Prophet, Mask of the Furnace, Black Hammer, Lore of Hashut

Heroes:

Level 2 Daemonsmith, naptha bombs, Chalice, Lore of Death

BSB Castellan, great weapon, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Preservation

Core:

27x Infernal Guard, fireglaives, standard bearer w/Banner of Speed, musician

(2) 20x Hobgoblins, shields, bows

Special:

6x K'Daai Fireborn

Rare:

Dreadquake Mortar, hellbound, ogre

K'Daai Destroyer

2,399 points

My alternative to this drops the Dreadquake and Destroyer for two Hellcannons and I pump up the fireglaive bunker to 37. Another option I'm considering is dropping hellbound from the Dreadquake and the Destroyer, and just taking another 6x Fireborn (common consensus seems to be that the Destroyer is fun but a little too easily baited due to auto-Frenzy).

Battle plan wise I want to advance to the mid-field and bait charges, then hit people in the flanks with my faster units. Artillery soften up enemy mage bunkers and hit enemy artillery as well (I'm expecting a lot of Wizards at the event because we're doing Storm of Magic doubles as well). At least in 8th cannon spam isn't a thing (Empire is capped at 2 and I think Dwarves usually only take 2 as well).

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
1) The Chalice. Mhm, I haven't yet really made up my mind there. It can be nice, sure, bit it is tricky. And I just never ever would leave my hold without a dispel scroll, it is too important. I never played Storm of Magic though. But still, no scroll? Risky.

****edit****
Thought again about the characters. Currently you have the Prophet with the Black Hammer. You might want to reconsider this. The Castellan is actually the better fighter, he just lacks a wound but has a higher WS. The Prophet is never going to be a really good fighter, your Castellan should do the heavy lifting. And the Prophet has the darkforged weapon which would be lost if he takes the Black Hammer. Darkforged weapon has two good results for magic, a breath weapon, or one of three results for close combat. And it's included in the points. How about this:

Prophet: Mask of the Furnace, Dispel Scroll
Castellan: Black Hammer, Potion of Speed, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Endurance (this is how I like to field mine)
Daemonsmith: Chalice

I didn't calculate it all, but if there are points, you could give the Prophet the Blood of Hashut. It's pretty nasty against the right opponent...

2) OK, so one large Fireglaive block. You plan on putting all three characters in there? So that will be almost half your army. Hope nobody has the sword of anti-heroes! ;) Or Dwellers Below or something. Don't you at least want to keep one of the wizards close to your war machine to get the buff?

3) Yeah that Destroyer's LD8 is not toooo great with frenzy. But if you keep him in the LD10 BSB bubble, you should be fine. I mean it is a total beast. You could also think about fitting 5 wolfraiders in somehow and keep them between the Destroyer and the enemy. If he cannot make the charge, he doesn't have to test.

4) Dreadquake vs Hellcannon is tough, they are both great :) as are all the other war machines. I mean that dreadquake is really powerful, and it can keep key enemiy units at bay with the Quake rule - and it's especially great for war machines, they are all move or fire! And they lose on 1 and 2! And that range! On the other hand, hellcannon works really well with that lore of death spell. But you have to have it. It's tough. I mean a hellbound Mortar with Ogre has T8 and W7, that's massive! Damn they are both so good...
5

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund:

Haha yeah the Purple Sun is hated throughout Happy You could run into trouble casting it with a level 2, though. I would definitely swap one spell for Spirit Leech, it's just too good with LD9. Soulblight is always welcome and Doom and Darkness goes great together with a Hellcannon, should you decide to get one.
I probably would swap Purple Sun tbh. I find the 'lol pass a test or die' spells really annoying even as the caster. Feels cheap. Yeah the auto-Panic from Hellcannon does pair nicely with Doom and Darkness, I may end up going that way against hordes. I've seen some of the lists for the event, lots of horde blocks that I probably can't beat with raw damage.
I added this (properly credited obviously) over at the Legion of Azgorh tactics page on 1d4chan. You can also check that out, lots of infos on list building etc.
Thanks man :) I'm pretty sure I read it one of the comments on the Infernal Guard thread here. It's pretty cheeky but legit.
1) The Chalice. Mhm, I haven't yet really made up my mind there. It can be nice, sure, bit it is tricky. And I just never ever would leave my hold without a dispel scroll, it is too important. I never played Storm of Magic though. But still, no scroll? Risky.
I still find it really amusing that Chalice is every turn. I think it's maybe overpriced at 50 but still very useful in trimming the enemy power pool every turn.
Prophet: Mask of the Furnace, Dispel Scroll
Castellan: Black Hammer, Potion of Speed, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Endurance (this is how I like to field mine)
Daemonsmith: Chalice
I do always forget the Prophet gets a random magic weapon included in his kit. I'll change up my heroes to be like this, it should work out. Yeah in Storm of Magic big 'deletes your unit' spells are the name of the game, with insane casting costs. So I do kinda need dispel scroll squeezed in.
2) OK, so one large Fireglaive block. You plan on putting all three characters in there? So that will be almost half your army. Hope nobody has the sword of anti-heroes! Wink Or Dwellers Below or something. Don't you at least want to keep one of the wizards close to your war machine to get the buff?
Oh yeah it's a deathstar (sorta). I could leave Daemonsmith with the Dreadquake but then his Death magic isn't getting into range of anything. I was toying with maybe dropping a Hobgoblin block and say the Destroyer. That would probably get me another 20 Fireglaive block, could split up the characters that way. If it was 3k I'd have the room to do so and still bring backup, but 2.4k is tight.
Thanks for your advice man :) I'm gonna do some practise games and see how I go.
6

Jasko:

I probably would swap Purple Sun tbh. I find the 'lol pass a test or die' spells really annoying even as the caster. Feels cheap. Yeah the auto-Panic from Hellcannon does pair nicely with Doom and Darkness, I may end up going that way against hordes. I've seen some of the lists for the event, lots of horde blocks that I probably can't beat with raw damage.

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
Agreed. These spells are just too much. You can even combine doom and darkness + dark subjugation from hashut and then hellcannon. That's -5 LD (-1 permanently), even Dwarfs will run.
I do always forget the Prophet gets a random magic weapon included in his kit. I'll change up my heroes to be like this, it should work out. Yeah in Storm of Magic big 'deletes your unit' spells are the name of the game, with insane casting costs. So I do kinda need dispel scroll squeezed in.

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
Well, only 3 out of 6 results have an effect in CC (besides always being magic attacks, obviously) and even with those a Prophet isn't exactly a fearsome fighter. But neither would he be with any other magic weapon, so...
Oh yeah it's a deathstar (sorta). I could leave Daemonsmith with the Dreadquake but then his Death magic isn't getting into range of anything. I was toying with maybe dropping a Hobgoblin block and say the Destroyer. That would probably get me another 20 Fireglaive block, could split up the characters that way. If it was 3k I'd have the room to do so and still bring backup, but 2.4k is tight.
Thanks for your advice man :) I'm gonna do some practise games and see how I go.

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
Yeah, lack of range is the biggest drawback with Lore of Death. You can upgrade it with most spells, but obviously with also increasing the casting value, could be tight for a level 2, especially when you also have a level 4 to supply. Staying back with a war machines is actually best done with a level 1 fire mage and fireball, but well, we already covered that fire is the weakest lore :) IMHO only if one can be fielded additionally (ideally as a dispel caddy) I would not drop the Destroyer, especially if you expect some hordes appearing. You'll need him against hordes!
Good luck with the games, keep us posted how it turned out!
7

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund:

Turns out that Castellan’s only get 75 points of magic items, so I remember now why Black Hammer+Mask on Prophet was familiar to me. Breath of Hatred means Prophet WS5 isn’t so bad (plus obviously helps the other characters too). If we still had Overlords in the army list, I would make a fighter, but I think for BSB resilience has to be the priority.

Reworking the characters, I’ve come up with the following:

Level 4 Prophet, Black Hammer, Mask of the Furnace, Lore of Hashut

Level 2 Daemonsmith, naptha bombs, Chalice, Lore of Death

BSB Castellan, great weapon, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Preservation

Rest of the list is the same. Castellan is a great challenge interceptor, he’s pretty annoying to kill and still hits back with a great weapon.

I guess I’m still reluctant to swap out the Dreadquake for Hellcannon. They’re both amazing models, but the Dreadquake is a bit tougher with Hellbound and Quake! will help me against Empire and Dwarves (also Ogres usually bring their cannon Rhinox as well).

8

Jasko:

Turns out that Castellan's only get 75 points of magic items, so I remember now why Black Hammer+Mask on Prophet was familiar to me. Breath of Hatred means Prophet WS5 isn't so bad (plus obviously helps the other characters too). If we still had Overlords in the army list, I would make a fighter, but I think for BSB resilience has to be the priority.

Reworking the characters, I've come up with the following:

Level 4 Prophet, Black Hammer, Mask of the Furnace, Lore of Hashut
Level 2 Daemonsmith, naptha bombs, Chalice, Lore of Death
BSB Castellan, great weapon, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Preservation

Rest of the list is the same. Castellan is a great challenge interceptor, he's pretty annoying to kill and still hits back with a great weapon.

I guess I'm still reluctant to swap out the Dreadquake for Hellcannon. They're both amazing models, but the Dreadquake is a bit tougher with Hellbound and Quake! will help me against Empire and Dwarves (also Ogres usually bring their cannon Rhinox as well).

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund
Yeah I know, and I didn't have both Hammer and Mask on the Castellan.
Anyway, there are many possibilities, and a tanky Castellan surely is a good choice. I have also often tried to fit the Stone Mantle into a list, it's really great for a Prophet, but it can only be combined with a ward save via the armour of destiny, but then you lose a point in Armour Save. A pity.

I agree, it's a very tough decision between dreadquake and hellcannon.
9

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund:

Hey so had a think about some matchups my current list can’t deal with very well. I forgot that Ogres can take the 2+ bounce magic banner, Dragon Princes with ward vs flaming etc.

Level 4 Sorceror-Prophet, naptha bombs, Talisman of Preservation, Lore of Hashut

Level 2 Daemonsmith, naptha bombs, dispel scroll, Lore of Death

BSB Castellan, fireglaive

(2) 20x Hobgoblins, bows, shields

(2) 20x Infernal Guard, fireglaives, musician, standard bearer

Deathshrieker

Magma Cannon

6x K’Daai Fireborn

Hellcannon

I feel like this strikes the right balance between gearing up heavily and having more units.

Sorceror-Prophet was chewing up a lot of points before, now he’s much more efficient

Daemonsmith now packs dispel scroll, which I think will be more useful than Chalice

BSB is vanilla but I kinda ran out of points. If I were to gear him up, I’d drop the Deathshrieker and give him the Talisman, putting the Mask of the Furnace back on the Prophet.

Two fireglaive blocks is going to force some more target priority issues, whereas before I had fewer of them in a single blob.

Now that each have a naptha bomb character in them, I have two blocks Standing and Shooting at only -1.

With the points saved from dropping gear on characters, I could squeeze in a Deathshrieker. I initially passed over it, but after realising it’s essentially a budget Hellcannon, it’s much more attractive (the Panic test just requires a wound instead of a hit, but with the redirect of misses that’s not hard against horde blocks).

Magma cannon is now in as well, for dealing with the Irongut bus and stuff like Trolls or Monstrous Cavalry.

I went with Hellcannon over Dreadquake because auto-Panic tests is going to be so dumb with Death magic debuffs (and Dark Subjugation if I roll it on my Prophet). It’s a tough call, but ultimately Dreadquake is more expensive with the Ogre and Hellbound (both of which are pretty essential). Hellcannon can fight melee war machine hunters, and causes Terror which is hilarious as well.

In the end I had to choose between Fireborn or Destroyer. I think I will add the Destroyer back in as a Bound monster when we do Storm of Magic, as you can buy it Fly in its Monstrous Arcanum version (Blazing Body is worse but only slightly). Fireborn just have more wounds and attacks, and they don’t suffer perma-Frenzy so can’t be baited by enemy chaff.

10

Jasko:

Hey. Yeah I agree, lots of thoughts and changes make sense. But you are still very fire-heavy, so Dragon Princes would be a real threat for your army!

I am still not really sure the two hobgoblin units make that much sense. For me Hobgoblins are basically tarpit units. They die against most units, I think one needs a big unit. Would maybe one unit with 30 instead of two with 20 an idea for you? It saves 55pts, then you could give the Prophet the mask back and kit out your BSB, because he is vulnerable right now. And with volley fire you can field them in 6 rows of 5 and still have 20 shots. But they will be more resilient. If it was me I would even take their bows for an additional 30pts, but maybe give them a standard (or even complete command unit) instead. :wink:

I’m not sure the Deathshrieker really gives you an additional punch. The demolition rockets have the problem that they have to cause a direct hit, which is not easy. You if you would drop it and 10 Hobgoblins, you would have 155pts to spend. You could also think about three Bull Centaurs, either with shields for a 2+ heavy cavalry or great weapons for S6 attacks!

11

Bronze Bull:

A lot of good notes here! I’m mining this for my own lists.