Steve D:
Hi,
After a long absence am looking to come back to the evil dwarfs. Have put together a rough list for what I want to paint up over the next coming months, would appreciate some feedback and thoughts as the list is very much a WIP! Would be a all comers list.
Sorceror Prophet, Lvl4, Ench sh, Fire, scroll, 4+ ward,
Khan, wolf
20 HG bows, Mu, SB
20 HG bows, Mu, SB
28 Infernal Guard, FC, +1m
Iron Demon, hellbound
Iron Demon, hellbound
Iron Demon, hellbound
Mortar, slave Ogre
Mortar, slave Ogre
I can swap the mortars for hellcannons pretty much one for one if need be. What do you think?
ThorAxe:
I feel that hellcanons would serve your list better than the mortars. Interesting list, just watch for cav heavy armies; they will make you regret having so many trains.
Yodrin:
I would consider a BSB, and swap mortars for HC. I think you will struggle against a fast moving army thats “in your face” round 2. And a good player can easly tie up those ID.
GDD:
Any fast cavalry at all will ruin your day. The paintrain only gets three sh*t dwarf attacks back, but you are t8.
So you will stand there the rest of the game, untill your opponent brings stuff to kill you. He will easily have more cavalry than you have trains.
I would switch the mortars for HC, as I think they are better value. Try to renember that the HC is a monster, and does do well in cc ^^
Steve D:
I think the consensus is two hellcannons which makes death a lot more sensible for the lore. Although fire was there to help remove the fast cav’s too. I think fast cav are the bane of all CD lists, how do people generally deal with them?
Heavygear:
I’m guessing the plan is to hit your opponents with the mortars forcing them to make the hard choice of moving or testing for dangerous terrain while sending an obscene amount of STR 6 AP multi wound shots down field for the first two or three rounds. It is a nasty gun line. You should be able to shred deathstars within two rounds of shooting.
I know everyone on the forums thinks Hell Cannons are the way to go but I have rarely seen one kill anything but its own crew and maybe a few infantry models in a unit. I’ve seen a paladin on a pegasus kill one in three rounds of combat. If anyone has had a different experience with a hell cannon I would like to hear about it.
The hell cannons will give you something else to flank the trains with when they do get into combat. I do see their value here.
The mortars are fairly survivable with the Ogre crewmen. They hit hard and have the added bonus of dangerous terrain tests. The model is quite nice. If you have one why not use it? I don’t see it as inferior to the Hell cannon just different.
Wolf :
I’ve had a few good games with Hellcannons for example:
Played against a Dark Elf player, aimed for his executioners the shot scattered onto his Hydra, Str 10 multiple wounds dead.
Against Skaven, it’s a terror causing monster when the gutter runners get close declare a charge, there normally out of the grey seerers Ld bubble. I did his and he never reallied.
A game against the new Wood Elves, he used the moonstone dropped right on top of my magma cannons, charged my hellcannon, held them inhale until I got a rear charge from my hobgoblins. He lost combat and I run him down.
In summary the hellcannon is a good support unit, and you can have allot of fun with it.
I’m currently finishing off my dreadquake mortar and really looking forward to testing it out.
As forthr suggested you sit your SP baby sitting the mortars, with the -1 of the misfire chart these things will blow up allot easier.
I think the list above is completely brutal and will be great fun, but I don’t think its a all comers list for a tournament or even friendly games.
GDD:
I agree with Wolf that the list is potentially brutal, but remember that the paintrain is anti infantry,
and is sadly hard countered by cavalry in all forms.
I guess it might do good against skaven? Shoot the wheels and big stuff, then drive into his blocks? idk.
Heavygear:
I agree with Wolf that the list is potentially brutal, but remember that the paintrain is anti infantry,
and is sadly hard countered by cavalry in all forms.
I guess it might do good against skaven? Shoot the wheels and big stuff, then drive into his blocks? idk.
GDD
I think people tend to look at the iron daemon as the steam tanks less impressive cousin.
I think of the Iron Daemon as an organ gun that when pressed becomes just a hard chariot.
Like any other chariot, I don't think he is planning on defeating cavalry buses with it on its own.
If he gets the charge off he still gets impact hits. After that he has stopped the unit dead for at least few turns. You know you aren't winning any combats with just the Iron Daemon vs. not infantry, so you flank with your goblin units or your IG, or your Hellcannon.
Against a cavalry heavy list, those units would be my first target for the twin mortars or hellcannons. The mortars will punish him for moving.
Small units of light to med cavalry can be shot up by goblins and the cannons on the Iron Daemon.
Just out of curiosity what is your strategy vs. cavalry heavy armies. More goblins, more IG, BC's with GW, more magic, more guns?
Wolf :
Hi,
After a long absence am looking to come back to the evil dwarfs. Have put together a rough list for what I want to paint up over the next coming months, would appreciate some feedback and thoughts as the list is very much a WIP! Would be a all comers list.
Sorceror Prophet, Lvl4, Ench sh, Fire, scroll, 4+ ward,
Khan, wolf
20 HG bows, Mu, SB
20 HG bows, Mu, SB
28 Infernal Guard, FC, +1m
Iron Demon, hellbound
Iron Demon, hellbound
Iron Demon, hellbound
Mortar, slave Ogre
Mortar, slave Ogre
I can swap the mortars for hellcannons pretty much one for one if need be. What do you think?
Steve D
I like the list, but if your running a leadership 10 gun line, then your wasting allot of points on your SP. With the list you have if your getting into combat early your loosing the game.
Your list is a pure rain down fire power and point denial. Reminder your SP get a looks out sir next to Warmachines so 4+ Ward and en sh not really a must to be honest. I'd swop,the nice to have kit for a Deathshrieker rocket or if enough point a magma cannon. But you may need to drop your Kharn.
Think this phrase is best suited, you can't be half pregnant.
Anyway my thoughts, by the way three iron daemons why didn't I think of that. Awesome.
Heavygear:
Hi,
After a long absence am looking to come back to the evil dwarfs. Have put together a rough list for what I want to paint up over the next coming months, would appreciate some feedback and thoughts as the list is very much a WIP! Would be a all comers list.
Sorceror Prophet, Lvl4, Ench sh, Fire, scroll, 4+ ward,
Khan, wolf
20 HG bows, Mu, SB
20 HG bows, Mu, SB
28 Infernal Guard, FC, +1m
Iron Demon, hellbound
Iron Demon, hellbound
Iron Demon, hellbound
Mortar, slave Ogre
Mortar, slave Ogre
I can swap the mortars for hellcannons pretty much one for one if need be. What do you think?
Steve D
I like the list, but if your running a leadership 10 gun line, then your wasting allot of points on your SP. With the list you have if your getting into combat early your loosing the game.
Your list is a pure rain down fire power and point denial. Reminder your SP get a looks out sir next to Warmachines so 4+ Ward and en sh not really a must to be honest. I'd swop,the nice to have kit for a Deathshrieker rocket or if enough point a magma cannon. But you may need to drop your Kharn.
Think this phrase is best suited, you can't be half pregnant.
Anyway my thoughts, by the way three iron daemons why didn't I think of that. Awesome.
Wolf
Dropping the kit on the SP and dropping the Khan won't net enough points for another artillery piece. I would keep the scroll and swap the enchanted shield for a charmed shield. Five points is not a lot to spend to save your 300+ point general the first time he fails a LoS and takes a cannon ball or long rifle shot to the face. The scroll will likely save one of the ID from a Dwellers or some other such nonsense at some point.
A 4+ ward might be needed if he's going stand alone on the General. Peg knights, harpies eagles and other less desirables can fly right past your wall of ID and IG and threaten the war machines. If its Hell Cannons, no biggy but adding a Toughness 5 lord with a 4+ ward will tie up most units like this and aid the Mortar crews in combat.
The Khan missle is going to be able to either chaff up an unwanted charge or make into the back lines to disrupt enemy war machines which is really what you will have to worry about during the first couple of turns. I would keep him.
Since this is a static gun line I would rather have the Razor Standard on the IG for the AP over +1 movement, but that's just me.
GDD:
Just out of curiosity what is your strategy vs. cavalry heavy armies. More goblins, more IG, BC's with GW, more magic, more guns?
Heavygear
Good points all around!
Haha, I don't really have a comeback to that. Goblins, BC's and the lore of metal is usually my "answer" yes.
And it's not a reliable one but it has worked for me.
I really wish I could have more Khans, or more reliable fast cav.
"How to deal with heavy cav" deserves a thread of it's own.
Steve D:
Against Cav heavy armies the plan would be to simply blast the units one at a time with the cannons on the ID and the mortars, maybe get one block stuck on one and then throw in the IG and win on combat res. Although cav heavy armies might be hard to deal with, I would be surprised if they can kill 3 ID in a game so it should be a close game.
With this list what lore would people take on the Lvl4?
I dont really want another artillery piece as at the moment, helcannons or mortars with the Ogre, both of them can look after themselves in combat so I dont really have to protect them - like I would with an artillery piece.
Thanks for all the comments so far!
zhatan87:
I have played a 3 ID list during the 6th nations ETC 2014.
It works pretty well (5 wins). Many people fear the potential of cav VS ID, but as it’s valuable when you play only one ID, it’s not the same at all with 3 ID, because you have hobgoblins with bow for the light cav, and heavy cav do not like the 3 shots S6 1D3Wounds of the 3 ID…
It becomes easier to protect ID with another ID.
For example, when playing against High Elves and 3 reavers 2 eagles, reavers were down pretty fast (maybe one unit can “glue” one ID), and when the 2 eagles went out to stop one ID, I used two ID to kill both eagles without having losen anything…
Good list there, I prefer hellcannon than mortar, for its resiliance. Another unbreakable tool is very annoying for the opponent, as it’s easy to be stopped on the wrong place…
For the lore, have tried all of them. With hellcannons, death lore for doom and darkness. Without them, metal. Fire is a usefull lore but without game winner spell, it depends of what you are looking after, good spells every time, or one broken spell… (doom, purple, ultimate)
gashnag:
I like my mortars in a 3000pt event I destroyed a hoard of 50 savage orc big’uns between my 2 mortars and DT test. I had the unit reduced to around 10 guys before he got into range of being charged with my Hobogoblins
Steve D:
Am going to be taking the CD to Bristol in September but the comp doesn’t allow 2 Hellcannons and restricted to 4 war machines in total (hellcannons and Irondemons past the first count as warmachines). So have come up with this list:
Sorceror Prophet, Lvl4, Ench sh, Fire, scroll, 4+ ward,
Khan, wolf, Spear, La, sh
20 bows, Mu, SB
20 bows, Mu, SB
29 Infernal Guard, FC, Geaming pennant
Demon, hellbound
Demon, hellbound
Demon, hellbound
Rocket
Kdaii Destroyer
I have swapped out the Hellcannons for a destroyer and a rocket and changed the lore to fire to help against elves and chaff etc. Thoughts?
Time of Madness:
Biggest draw back I find with this lis is the lack of a bsb.
The bsb not only gives you the re-rolls for break tests, but makes the unit stubborn as well.
I’d keep the Prophet the same (equipment-wise), but I still think you are better off with death. You have enough shots coming from the hobgoblins and iron daemons to take care of chaff units.
I’ve found the khans on wolves lately are dying fast and furious especially against elves. If you drop the single rocket and the khan and 1 infernal guard model + the gleaming pennant you should have enough points for a bsb with the mask of furnace. Slot the bsb/prophet into the guard unit. Making them stubborn on LD 10 with a re-roll. That unit won’t go anywhere.
Hope that helps,
Time of Madness
Steve D:
The only problem is that the core is pretty much on min points already so can’t drop any models, can just about drop the banner.
My problem with the BSB is that it does nothing for half the list - the Iron Demons and Destroyer dont need it and if something gets into combat with the IG that they can’t win against and need to be stubborn, then am struggling anyway as it probably means have also got past the big guys too. So am just not convinced the points are worth it on a BSB. Would make more sense to me to drop the scroll, add in a scroll of shielding and crown of command if wanted the stubborn block. Can drop the Khan easy enough for the points.
zhatan87:
So am just not convinced the points are worth it on a BSB
You are right, I've played such a list in ETC size game, BSB isn't as useful as usually... I played with more hobgoblins and less CD, because your CD unit shouldn't see close combat and bring your prophet in CC... You just need ranks and support (some steadfast).
I've found that 3 hobgobs units were needed, just to unlock and pursue things locked by an ID... (21+25+25 hobgobs)
With so many shots (3 ID+70 bow's shot)s, chaff isn't a matter...
So, if no restriction on casting spells, keep the death lore. More dangerous. But Fire is always usefull, it's just that it's not a transcendant lore...