[Archive] 2400 no comp

Archive [Archive] Army Lists
1

babyberg:

Hi there fellow chaos follower,

I’m quite new in the CD setting. Here is the list I’ve come up with. I’ll comment each choice at the end.

Total Roster Cost: 2398



Sorcerer-Prophet, death lore

lvl 4, charmed shield, dispel scroll, talisman of preservation

Dark Castellean

Battle standard bearer, black hammer of Hashut, enchanted shield

2X Hobgoblin Khan

Wolf, Spear, light armour  

25 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard

full command, great weapon

25 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard

Hand weapon & shield, musician, banner

4 Bull Centaurs Renders

full command, great weapon

4 Bull Centaurs Renders

full command, additional hand weapon

8 K’daai Fireborn

manburner

5 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders

musician

5 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders

musician

First thing to say is, I want to play in a competitive tournament setting.

Second… Yes, no warmachine. I don’t like them that much. There, I’ve said it… :wink: I’ve made this tactical choice after several practices. Simply put, I can’t justify the enormous price tag each one have. I’ve used each one of them. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure they can be good. But our tournament scene if mostly oriented on objective control. I need to move, I need to control the map. And obviously, warmachine are a serious step-back in that mind set. Since you really need to attach a Daemonsmith for a truly efficient killing machine, I invest around 500 pts (2 daemonsmith, earthshaker & magma) on 2,4k for 2 shooting attack by turn… Well, that around 20% of my army that is going to sit here and get destroyed as soon as decent warmachine hunter come close. And by decent, I’m not talking about the deathshrieker rocket. Don’t get me started on those. :stuck_out_tongue:

Thirdly, I’m not quite set on that list. I really love the irondaemon (skullcraker version). But again, it’s overwhelming price tag is irritating.

Fourthly, yes, no hobgoblins foot soldiers. I now I could use a 40-50 horde of them, but their is several reason for not including them. I don’t want to create them, I don’t think they will be adapted to my kind of list and Infernal Guard are too awesome not to include!

So, the list by itself:

Sorcerer-Prophet, death lore

lvl 4, charmed shield, dispel scroll, talisman of preservation

Easy choice here. Great stats, great Ld and choice for lore of death. His leadership really synergies with spirit leach and the basic purple sun (15+) on 4 dice will be cast 84% of the time. What’s not to love with him?

Dark Castellean

Battle standard bearer, black hammer of Hashut, enchanted shield

Again, a good choice. A good investment, stubborn with To5. St6 with hashut hammer at such a small cost? yes please.



2X Hobgoblin Khan

Wolf, Spear, light armour  

Great sacrificial guys. Can tie up most other redirector. Good little fellow. I would love to find some point to kit them up with magic item but each game remind me how I have to keep them low on point cost.

25 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard

full command, great weapon

Str6, 4+ armour… Yes please. Would love to get 30 of them, but their price tag is pretty high.

25 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard

Hand weapon & shield, musician, banner



Bunker for BSB + lvl.4. Love to see combat and usually perform pretty well.

4 Bull Centaurs Renders

full command, great weapon

Little pain wagon. My original pain train was composed with 8 guys like this but I’ve realized that it was a big inefficient investment. Love to chop knight, monsters and sometime warmachines. The To5, 3+ armor, Mov7 is really to good to pass. And the psychological effect they impose is truly great. I really hate to see a measly ‘‘2’’ in their attack profile, but if these guy would have 3 attacks, they would be too good.

4 Bull Centaurs Renders

full command, additional hand weapon

Second pain wagon. I’ve choose the AHW to add flexibility. I would use GW de facto on the Bull because I have to ensure that each and every attack that hit wound. But equipped like this, I align them to smash infantry/low armoured troop mostly. With 3 attacks + stomp, their unbelievable ability to not died greatly compose for their lack of hurting power. But if they get tied up in a fight you don’t want, it can become ugly fast. Be sure to use their 7 inches moves right.  

8 K’daai Fireborn

manburner

I have to say, I’m in a love/hate relationship with k’daii. I’ve never loved them and I’ve never included them in any army list because of their burning body rule. You see, when I pay for a unit, I mostly invest points in is ability to kill (redirector not included). Each and every unit have a predictable killing ratio against predictable enemy. But here, I pay 55 pts to include a selfdestruction ability and an unpredictable killing ration because I can die before I get to the enemy. And forgeworld had this silly idea to only give them 2 Wo each. Darn… But well, when you look at all the ability you can get for that risk, it’s pretty awesome. This unit really synergies with the -1To and -1 Str from the lore of death spell. Your blazing body will cause more wounds and the re-roll to wound imposed will be even uglier for the enemy. Factored with their 4++, it’s pretty good. They also eat troll and chimera for dinner and love khorne stupid cannon and several flame/runic induced dwarf warmachines.

5 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders

musician

5 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders

musician

Same role as the khan except they are less reliable. The animosity is quite bad, but their price tag compensate it. You will ‘‘only’’ flee, compared to forced combat with O&G animosity. Which is a good thing. Their funny, dies in a funny way an are always a comics relief when I explain my opponent that I will suffer a -1 to hit if he charged me…

Overall, this is my idea. Please, don’t be shy to comment anything! I’ll be glad to talk about it!

I’m going to play 5-6 games in the next few days. Those are practice against different list (undeath legion, dwarf, dark elf, legion of chaos, etc) and different player level (inexperienced to hard veteran). I’ll keep you updated on my thoughts and potential modifications.

2

sam585:

Might want to equip your Prophet to be more of a threat in CC since hes going to be seeing it, or put his but on a carpet to be more of threat. Generally puting our casters in units is bad because a miscast just obliterates them, and we pay a lot of points for our infernal guard.

Need a wardsave on that castellen.

Have you tried a group of 6/7 centaurs with full command and a Taur’ruk? Idea is to move the Taur’ruk up during combat to block off as many attacks as possible, the champion gets the rest, should on average receive 1-3 wounds and do more in return. I have started giving my renders with great weapons the razor standard to maximize their damage potential having 2 attacks each means you have to get the most out of each.

The K’daii are likely the weakest thing in your list, because of blazing body. You will get a lot more mileage from either another unit of centaurs like 8, or a block of ironsworn.

You know my tournaments missions are slightly like yours in that warmachines are a liability, mine mainly due to weird deployment rules and low weapon ranges, that is why I am taking hellcannons. They can march, charge, have good range, can fight off any warmachine hunter, and with lore of deaths doom and darkness LD spell can easily break an army by itself with the forced panic check. Your prophet can reliably baby sit one, perhaps two.

Are you purposefully not wanting to take a K’daii destroyer in your no warmachine list?

3

MadHatter:

Like sam says, put the Prophet on either a carpet or a bale taurus for a fighting list. I’d drop the bull centaurs and go destroyer instead or bring 2 Hellcannons, they don’t need a daemonsmith if you play them like WoC, drop shots turn 1 and perhaps 2 then charge.

Utility-wise the hellcannons and carpet prophet of hashut (with it’s guaranteed march withing 8") are swiss army knifes fullfilling a myriad of roles, as are fireglaives with razor standard and blunderbusses (remember blunders are still sword and board in CC), my experience from tournaments (2 this year) is that the most adaptable wins.

To sum it up you get max utility from:

Sorcerer-Prophet, lvl 4 Hashut, T. of preservation, Enchanted Shield and Arabyan carpet, Hellcannons, fireglaives w. razor (kills chaff, challenges cavalry) and blunderbusses (horrible damage to low T foes, great stand and shoots combined with naptha bombs and hard as nails in CC).

I really like your Khans though :hat off

4

babyberg:

Might want to equip your Prophet to be more of a threat in CC since hes going to be seeing it, or put his but on a carpet to be more of threat. Generally puting our casters in units is bad because a miscast just obliterates them, and we pay a lot of points for our infernal guard.

Need a wardsave on that castellen.

Have you tried a group of 6/7 centaurs with full command and a Taur'ruk? Idea is to move the Taur'ruk up during combat to block off as many attacks as possible, the champion gets the rest, should on average receive 1-3 wounds and do more in return. I have started giving my renders with great weapons the razor standard to maximize their damage potential having 2 attacks each means you have to get the most out of each.

The K'daii are likely the weakest thing in your list, because of blazing body. You will get a lot more mileage from either another unit of centaurs like 8, or a block of ironsworn.

You know my tournaments missions are slightly like yours in that warmachines are a liability, mine mainly due to weird deployment rules and low weapon ranges, that is why I am taking hellcannons. They can march, charge, have good range, can fight off any warmachine hunter, and with lore of deaths doom and darkness LD spell can easily break an army by itself with the forced panic check. Your prophet can reliably baby sit one, perhaps two.

Are you purposefully not wanting to take a K'daii destroyer in your no warmachine list?

sam585
The prophet is mainly orientated to survive. He doesn't need to kill stuff. With his statline and equipement, he'a already better than any regular IG and his prohibitive basic cost (250+pts) really set a fixed limit on him. Giving him a magical weapon would just raise his already high points cost, which is not a good thing. He's not here to win fights, he's here to survive and wreck units/heroes/lord with LoD, hence my approach on the resistant VS killing output.

Definitely agree on the ward save for the Castellan. I've tried to gather up some point for him and finally been able to find something.

The Taur'ruk are lovely, but not really affordable. A 8 bullcentaur bus will cost around 400 pts to carry a 200 pts hero? I'm doubting the efficacy of that tactic since it really lower your flexibility and table control capacity.

And regarding the k'daii capacity to survive, I was thinking the same thing as you do. Until I've played them. The To4 is not that great, but combined with blazing body (reroll to wound) and 4++, their are a tremendous foes for the enemy. Sure it's only 2 wounds, but you have to factor everything else into that equation. 2 str 5 strike + one stomp Str5 + blazing body confer them a great killing output. Seriously, try them, their really good and their performance were quite unexpected. They will need further testing tough.

And yes, I don't want a Fireborn. Cannons threatens him to much and our local meta is full of them. Dwarf, Empire & Ogre are a great threat. More Monstrous Infantry are the bread & butter according to me. (excluding daemon since it's flaming)
Like sam says, put the Prophet on either a carpet or a bale taurus for a fighting list. I'd drop the bull centaurs and go destroyer instead or bring 2 Hellcannons, they don't need a daemonsmith if you play them like WoC, drop shots turn 1 and perhaps 2 then charge.

Utility-wise the hellcannons and carpet prophet of hashut (with it's guaranteed march withing 8") are swiss army knifes fullfilling a myriad of roles, as are fireglaives with razor standard and blunderbusses (remember blunders are still sword and board in CC), my experience from tournaments (2 this year) is that the most adaptable wins.

To sum it up you get max utility from:

Sorcerer-Prophet, lvl 4 Hashut, T. of preservation, Enchanted Shield and Arabyan carpet, Hellcannons, fireglaives w. razor (kills chaff, challenges cavalry) and blunderbusses (horrible damage to low T foes, great stand and shoots combined with naptha bombs and hard as nails in CC).

I really like your Khans though :hat off

MadHatter
The Bale taurus is automatically out of the equation because mounted monster are a complete joke in the 8th edition. Canons and combat resolution make short work of them and putting all your eggs in one basket (500 + pts) brings enormous problems, especially when the mount doesn't have any kind of save.

As previously said, hellcannon are out of the equation too because I don't want a fixed list. I can't stay into one bunker and if I wanted to do so, hellcannon wouldn't be my first choice. (2 X dreadquake + 3 x magma would be waayyyy cooler)

And again, sorry for going against the ban wagon here, but blunderbuss are horrible. Specific situation and situation examples are no good proof. Yes, it's a fact that 20 of them, for a hefty 400 pts, will have a tremendous performance against low armoured, To3 troops. They will likely shred them to pieces. But who wouldn't for 400 pts? Give me 400 pts and I can imagine much more efficient way of killing thing. Hell, 6 Empire turkey will shred anything with those kind of stats and are much more mobile, efficient and stable. The 12'' range is another negative thing to factor. Overall, the weapon should cost around 1-2 points. And even then, I would not include them. The fireglaive are better IMHO, but are not a competitive choice either . Let's compare, for example, a unit of irondrakes. For roughly the same point, you can get 24(!) of them. They have better equipement, better guns, betters stat and better rules (fireglaive or bluderbuss). And even if they are better, you don't see irondrakes units that much in tournament ground. And one of the reasons is because a BS 3 shooting is near useless. Our fighting ground are often covered with forest, giving a soft cover. So any shot made over 9 inches (or 6...) will likely hit on a 5+ or 6+ or even worse if you play against someone who knows out to shield his units.

So your trying to tell me that I should pay a fireglaive 5 points for each and every soldier for the opportunity to wound someone one time out of five/six with a Str4? And when the enemy is close enough, you'll get charged anyway. These option are a joke and a mimic of a strength. Don't get me wrong, I really, really love fireglaive and blunderbuss. the concept is great, the look if pretty badass and chaos dwarf are a unique looking army. But seriously, get a good ruling on those guns. I know that my experience is massively biased by the tournament I'm playing. In these tournament, you have to control objectives and static lists get crunched every time. But even when I'm considering this, I feel displeased by the CD gun arsenal. And I can't get why people are excited about those guns since they only ''shine'' in really specific situation.

Ahhhh.... my rant is finished. Sorry for the wall of text. :P

I've used your comments to create another list:
2400 Pts - Chaos Dwarfs Roster

Total Roster Cost: 2398

1 Sorcerer-Prophet
Level 4 Wizard, LoD
1 Charmed Shield
1 Talisman of Preservation
1 Ironcurse Icon

1 Dark Castellean
1 The Mask of the Furnace, great weapon

1 Hobgoblin Khan
giant wolf, spear, light armour

1 Hobgoblin Khan
giant wolf, spear, light armour

25 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard
full command, great weapon

25 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard
musician & banner, shields

4 Bull Centaurs Renders
full command, AHW

4 Bull Centaurs Renders
full command, great weapon

5 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders

5 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders

8 K'daai Fireborn
champion
5

sam585:

I rolled out some K’daii simulations today, and I do say that they are really not that bad. I always thought they were movement 5 but on a second look have seen them as movement 6, which makes them a very nice unit.

One thing that does seem like it might be an issue is not having a banner of swiftness on your IG. An 8" march is not much, but it is a lot better than a 6" and its just worth the 15pts.

Your Prophet might be more survivable with the mask of the furnace+dawnstone?

6

babyberg:

I rolled out some K'daii simulations today, and I do say that they are really not that bad. I always thought they were movement 5 but on a second look have seen them as movement 6, which makes them a very nice unit.

One thing that does seem like it might be an issue is not having a banner of swiftness on your IG. An 8" march is not much, but it is a lot better than a 6" and its just worth the 15pts.

Your Prophet might be more survivable with the mask of the furnace+dawnstone?

sam585
Great observation regarding the K'daii. I was also surprised to see their 6 inches movement. The initiative 4 is also great.

The banner of swiftness was use a lot in some other list but at the moment, I'm using this list in a 2 wave style. Like this, great weapon and HWS stay close, providing cover and leadership while the first waves (k'daii and centaur) smash the enemy.

I'll check if I can fit a mask on the prophet. My main concern is to leave my Castellan with a somewhat decent save and punching power, hence the mask was given ton him with a great weapon. I'll try a few game and give you feedback on how thing went with this setup.