That is why we have to be careful as staff on CDO about killing the conversation every time someone asks for a download link for WD presents. These things may be out there, may be perfectly fine for you to produce for yourself, but they are illegal to share.
Seeing as you happen to have an active email on the go joshmohr, you don’t fancy replying to ask if they could consider reloading the RH list onto the GW site?
They could put it here:
Warhammer Articles: >> Gaming Articles
Pulling the RH list off the internet is cruel to the existing fans, and considering there is nothing suggesting they will have a new list any time soon, is just lost business to them for a couple of minutes work.
Adding a single pdf for an old army is not exactly a legally binding contract forcing them to release them soon
I will email them myself as well. If enough of us bombard them asking the same thing, eventually they might suggest it to his boss! I’ve already got a CD related one to the UK ones, still waiting for a response.
The advantage being of course, that you can point out it would be illegal for us to share the RH file with each other, accorsing to what’s been said there.
I was recently very disappointed to find that after the Australian GW site was revamped to bring it in line with the rest, the old Chaos Dwarf armylist pdf from Ravening Hordes is now no longer officially available anywhere online in english (I don’t know about the other languages).
Seeing as I respect the copyrights that Games Workshop strives to uphold, it seems highly inconsiderate to the dedicated fans to actively force your customers to search for illegally loaded versions of the Ravening Hordes list. We have to engage in illegal actions simply to enjoy part of the game! I’m no expert, but that does feel like a good customer support…
So I am writing to enquire if you could pass onto the web department/ management my suggestion that they consider reloading the RH list onto the GW site.
They could put it here:
Warhammer Articles: >> Gaming Articles
It could be an ‘unannounced’ article, so it would not have to appear anywhere as news.
Pulling the RH list off the internet is cruel to the existing fans, and considering there is nothing suggesting they will have a new list any time soon, it is just lost business for you for a couple of minutes work. Believe it or not there are people who only buy GW products specifically to convert into Chaos Dwarfs, and to remove the only ‘legal’ list (in all meanings of the word) is not good business in the long run.
Adding a single pdf for an old army is not exactly a legally binding contract forcing you to release them soon, or even to provide any other support of any kind. Heck, if the CD do get a new book it will even be nostalgic! It certainly could not harm any future sales.
At the very least, if there is a GW supported site or link anywhere on the internet where this is located in english please let me know.
Thats quite interesting though… they did have the RH as a pdf download right, or do i just remember what i “think” i saw. If RH was downloadable and free why should it be illegal for us to share it… which is a shame as i seem to have misplaced my original RH book. By the same token if they provided a “pdf” of ravening hordes then wouldnt that mean they were legally providing material that was illegal for us to have, lol… its a humorous catch 22 for them.
As a side note, i also seem to remember some sites selling the books and or offering a pdf download of said book… that would seem to make a legal purchase of a product an illegal act.
I am guessing the pulled the RH and related info down when they revamped the site again, so it may have just been oversight and as time goes on, peoples change the knowledge gets lost. Grim has a good recommendation though… flooding them with emails about said material, not spamming them mind you but getting enough of the cd community to email them reminding them to repost the ravening hordes.
Although the rote response is prolly going to be the resounding Ravening Hordes was 6th edition and subsequently replaced by 7th, we are sorry your army is no longer supported - but there is always the counts as rules to use in accordance with another army book/list.
gettting ready to email gw and request the RH for access.
GSF, I think it best to point out that you said “I’m no expert, but that does feel like a good customer support…” instead of doesN’T. Just don’t want them thinking that you’re being sarcastic is all.
Thats quite interesting though... they did have the RH as a pdf download right, or do i just remember what i "think" i saw. If RH was downloadable and free why should it be illegal for us to share it... which is a shame as i seem to have misplaced my original RH book. By the same token if they provided a "pdf" of ravening hordes then wouldnt that mean they were legally providing material that was illegal for us to have, lol.. its a humorous catch 22 for them.
apocalypstia
Yes, they did have RH on-line for awhile. Previously when you clicked Chaos Dwarfs from the army list you would get to the CD pdf:s.
There's a difference between the owner spreading the material and a third party doing so. It is not illegal to have pdf:s, you just can't make copies of existing material if you are not the owner of the material. In other words GW can make pdfs available if they so choose, and it would not be illegal to have it, because GW was providing it. E.g. you can download a pdf of the Blood Angel rules from GW. This does not break copyright in anyway, however it would still be illegal for anyone to distribute this material to others without permission.
It is the copyright holders right to choose who and how their work is distributed.
E.g. I would be illegal for me to put Word of Hashut on my club's homepage without permission from CDO.
Snow i do agree with you, and as i rattle my memory a little more… there was a terms/use agreement that you had to accept to access the pages… i never printed it out may have read it once. I also believe that if i download it i can back it up, transfer it to my new system, etc. etc. so the alterior question becomes where the real line in the sand is.
According to the email response as first posted, it was deemed “not legal in any case”… and thats the point of view from that one rep. Which follows along with the lines of knowledge. By GW’s own action they made it legal to download and own the pdf for the Ravening Hordes. Now this customer service guy is saying its “its not legal in any case”; but may be forgivable. He may not be aware that GW did publish the Ravening Hordes as free source… but anywho… i am beginning to ramble.
the other possibility is the difference in topic. The army books they sell, its current product. Illegal pdfs hurt their bottom line and help us win bi-annual price increases. Ravening Hordes was a supplemental book they made available at no cost to those who did not purchase a full out v6 Fantasy set.
The reply joshmohr got was not clear whether he meant it was illegal to create your own backup, or whether it was refering to the practice of downloading copies.
What we know is that it is illegal to host armybooks and the like specifically to share it with others. If it was only for your own use you wouldn’t load it on the internet!
I think the ravening hordes pdf falls into the same category as it is copyrighted material.
So it is (supposedly) legal to create your own back up copy, but illegal to host it yourself online specifically to share with others. I think GW gets round the fact that you own a digital copy of something they have copyrighted by a limited license agreement.
1: If you own say the Bretonnia Army Book. You are fully within your rights of ownership of the book to make a backup copy of it in the United States. As far as other countries… i have no clue.
2: Note the Key word of MAKE. I.E. you are supposed to produce this copy yourself.
3: Downloading of Copyrighted materials is ILLEGAL regardless of what you own. It just is. Because the Crime is an accessory crime not a primary crime… Your being charged as an accessory to the person who illegally distributed the file. Its the same as if you buy a stolen car. You can be charged as an accessory to the original theft. Again this is based on US law. and as far as foreign Nations I have no idea.
3: Downloading of Copyrighted materials is ILLEGAL regardless of what you own. It just is. Because the Crime is an accessory crime not a primary crime.. Your being charged as an accessory to the person who illegally distributed the file. Its the same as if you buy a stolen car. You can be charged as an accessory to the original theft. Again this is based on US law. and as far as foreign Nations I have no idea.
Servius
In Europe it wouldn't be an "accessory crime" (at least in most countries), buying a stolen car is not criminal unless they can prove you knew it was stolen or likely to be.
However the downloading of copyright material is illegal or will be whether you own it or not. There's new EU legislation that ensures this and countries are slowly changing their laws to comply. Sweden and Finland recently did. Hence the Pirate Bay trial in Sweden.
It took me one call to Mail Order and an email to the same person there to get the Chaos Dwarf Army List “Kriegerische Horden” as a photocopy via snailmail.
What did you try to get ? I don´t understand the topic right, i think.
It took me one call to Mail Order and an email to the same person there to get the Chaos Dwarf Army List "Kriegerische Horden" as a photocopy via snailmail.
What did you try to get ? I don´t understand the topic right, i think.
Andy
We are discussing many things I think. But in principle, if downloading illegal PDFs for personal use (as a back-up of a armybook you own) would be OK.
There's also intertwined the question whether we would be allowed to host an electronic version of the FREE CD Ravening Hordes list. To which the answer is no we can not do so.
Funny story: the introduction to Ravening Hordes quite cleary states that you can photocopy any part of the book you wish to “give to your friends”. GW might find themselves on some rather shaky ground if they ever tried to prosecute someone sharing an illegal copy of the Chaos Dwarf list drawn from that publication.
I’ve already got a CD related one to the UK ones, still waiting for a response.