I think the main point is "Isn’t this what we wanted?"
All this stuff we have been doing has been to keep us ticking over until GW gave us something, almost with an assumption that it would maybe never come. Maybe CDO didn’t directly influence this, but we did seem to at least keep a level of demand that wasn’t out there for the other forgotten armies, members played at tournaments, submitted models for GW events, kept active.
But still, what do we have right now? half the models to make an army at the Forge World prices, only available online, and some rule fragments. It’s not a full range in GW stores with a book that everyone regards as legal. We still aren’t quite where we really want to be yet. There is still a road in front of us, and even if GW tells us where the final destination shpould be, we are still making it on our own. Some will settle for the easy option (no shame in that), some will put the skills they learnt to good use. It was fun while it lasted, and it isn’t over yet, and many have had enough fun n the last 10 years of no official support that it will never be over for them and their armies will be great.
Another thing to note is that the Infernal Guard are a cult of Chaos Dwarfs, which leaves things a bit open as to what the rest of the Chaos Dwarf race is up to. I wonder what the final list will look like in the Tamurkhan book…
Well, it’s hard to make sweeping generalisations about what a large swathe of gamers think.
I’m sure there are some people here who love the intellectual freedom that being a fringe army gave them. I’m sure there are some who liked the cachet (I will refrain from using the phrase “snob value”) of playing an obscure and hard to collect army. Many of us no doubt were simply inspired by the creativity of others on the site. Some people (like me) probably just got into CD because they thought the figures looked cool.
My personal feeling when the whole WF CD thing really came to life was that we were living in a golden age. The site was started up to keep CD alive. Now that WF have stormed in with new waves of CD figure and books CD are obviously not going anywhere (suck eggs all the haters and doubters on other forums…)
I guess my updated list that I worked on is now an anachronism, so I know where Thommy is coming from. However, we should bear in mind that the fluff and figures in the WF books will themselves be sources of creativity and inspiration. People on the site who don’t want to pay those prices will no doubt come up with some awesome scratch builds and conversions.
While I do feel a certain sense of loss that my updated CD list and fiction bits are somewhat redundant now, for me the positives of what is going on vastly outway the negatives.
The main downside for me is the cost of the figures, but then in the long run that may actually result in the conversions and scratch builds on the site continuing.
Happy days (more or less).
I think that my background with CD will highlight how important & influential CDO is:
A few years back, I was a Orcs & Goblins player and my mate had casually mentioned that the Black Orcs had been created by a race called the Chaos Dwarfs (I got in the hobby a few weeks after 6th had been released). I then google them & ended up here. After reading the Wiki, I was hooked !!! I went & purchased all the material about Chaos Dwarfs I could find listed in the Wiki (Black Library, White Dwarf presents, etc). CDO provides a place where I could read about the Chaos Dwarfs from others who had the same (or even more) passion than I did. I am not an very active poster here, but I check CDO on a daily basis, and after some time I gathered enough courage to sign up & start posting.
I strictly play RH, simply because getting anything else approved in local tournaments is impossible (TOs consider allowing CD only because of me, since I’m the only one playing them). However, I’ve read all the ‘fan-made’ armybooks (& kudos to Thommy, who’s the only one to get the Blunderbuss as I thought it should).
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t think that the future of CDO is in any trouble. Yes, other armybooks might take a hit (I don’t know how other countries will be affected). However the prices of the FW miniatures might actually be a bonus, as it will drive more people to converting their own stuff, with the tutorials & videos from CDO or purchase alternatives (like Baggronor or Scibor).
To the OP:
Yes, it can feel a bit like the cavalry has finally prance din and gets the tickertape-parade. However, I think that just because CDO has survived with nothing for so long, the cavalry is welcomed but unnecessary : people will keep continuing to GS’s their own CD’s, they will keep converting BfSP-mini’s and they will keep writing their own fluff.
New members will only add to the general line of WF-minis, but the hardcore members will keep expanding the fanbased fluff there is.
So I think CDO have an extra edge on other fanbased websites: we don’t rely on GW-fluff exclusively since we’ve made such a lot of fluff ourselves: GW fluff only adds to what we already have
I hear you Thommy, I feel the same kind of bittersweetness at the moment.
Of course there are many different kinds of motives behind starting and collecting a chaos dwarf army. Mine certainly was to have an army no one else had, one that was not made up but came from a solid fluff and model background that had merely not been updated in a long time. With the release of new, official miniatures and official fluff, that motivation is basically gone.
Now, we will first need to see what the Tamurkhan book will actually include for chaos dwarfs. Right now it seems to me the newly released units would merely be an optional part for a WoC army and the Legion of Azgorh a rather special army list that does not cover the typical army that would march from Zharr Naggrund. So this still potentially leaves us with a lot of open space to explore with our own creations.
Funny enough I have already experienced this once - namely with the Death Korps. Years before FW took to making a complete range of models for them, I - much like many other players - converted them myself and had quite a bit of lifely correspondence on the internet with others who did. Once FW released their models, all that seized. Firstly, there was no way anyone can sculpt a whole army to the same level of finesse as they can, and secondly it’s not fun to have one’s converted cadians constantly compared to the nifty FW models who took the place of the “official” Krieg army.
So what will happen to CDO? IMO it will continue to thrive, but under a different premise. I don’t believe we will continue to invent crazy new stuff with the same openness that was customary here for the past years. I think the general styles and trends will rather naturally align themselves with the direction WF are taking.
Then again if the prices of the “official” models turn out to be a main motivational factor behind people converting their own chaos dwarfs instead, things might not change at all. Unfortunately, prices were never something that kept me from buying something I really wanted - much to the chagrin of my wallet… So I wouldn’t understand that motivaton.
Whatever the future brings, CDO will - at least for those in the know - remain the prime source for everything related to chaos dwarfs and the pioneering force behind their glorious resurrection. So while it’s a happy day for all of us to finally have new official models released and almost all our dreams come true, I somehow, as Baggronor put it in one of his posts, also feel that the way of getting there was actually more cool and more important to me than this outcome.
All this stuff we have been doing has been to keep us ticking over until GW gave us something, almost with an assumption that it would maybe never come.
One of the points I was trying to make ;)
Another point of view:
I have known about your site for many years, was a lurker for quite some time, and finally joined last fall. I have owned Chaos Dwarves since the swivel guns, the lost and the damned, and slaves to darkness books were released. I have always wanted to do a “proper” Chaos Dwarf army, but delayed in favor of paintng and collecting other mainline GW armies. When the rumors started a while back that the Chaos Dwarves were going to be redone, that was all I needed to hear. I spent the last year collecting HUGE amounts of chaos dwarves from ebay, bartertown and from players I know. I have downloaded countless images from this website to use as reference. Read the painting blogs, and have taken time to figure out which direction my CD were going to be headed in my style of play and painting. And my decision was based upon THIS site, NOT from the rumors about how Forgeworld was going to be redoing them.
Forgeworld is NOT going to be taking the credit for “resurrecting” the Chaos Dwarves in the world that I live in. Frankly, this site is. Forgeworld, in my example, was simply the catalyst in the decision for me to finally do them.
I don’t know if you have noticed, but to me, Forgeworld is trying real hard to one-up this site. The infernal guard are priced very low when compared to the lists on this site, and the iron daemon looks like something taken from the ThommyH lists. Trying to outdo this site means that Forgeworld HAS read your material.
Yes, I am a member because I heard that Forgeworld was redoing the Dawi Zharr. But everything that I have collected and painted has been done based upon this site.
Just my point of view.
Change is scary for some folks, others embrace it.
I never got into Chaos Dwarfs for the obscure factor as I have often heard others say. Sorry but collecting an obscure army doesn’t make one"different" if anything one should question the sanity of it all. Those people that were in in for the “rarity factor?” There are always the cause of Dogs of War or Fimir to champion.
In short I never believed this say would come, I hoped for it, but never thought it would happen* and here it is.
So with all that said I don’t think the time was wasted until this point. I certainly don’t begrudge my time spent on the Word of Hashut either. I’d say out of anyone I’d have cause to gripe along with those that have but in massive amounts of effort into the cause, not going to mention everyone because the list is too long) and I’m not.
In the end I disagree strongly with Grimstonefire. I think if we hadn’t made such an effort to keep CDs alive would wouldn’t be be where we are now. Most “efforts” for other armies long gone boil down to internet petitions that go no where. We PROVED there was a market and keep up with a amazing amount of content. If we hadn’t done that I’m pretty confident that GW would have done nothing regarding CDs. Ultimately we’ll never know but until someone can show me we didn’t help move the needle.
EDIT: I know people have voiced concern over the years of the site getting bigger and new people joining. I also get why people are upset as to why weren’t you here before when we were the only ones keeping the flame of hope alive. But, I for one welcome all new comers as to their ideas. Just because Forgeworld is out with CDs doesn’t mean we have to stop doing anything. The broad canvas is nice, it only gets as narrows as you choose it to be.
(*This has been my same stance since 2007 when I joined).
In the end I disagree strongly with Grimstonefire. I think if we hadn't made such an effort to keep CDs alive we wouldn't be be where we are now.
:cheers No worries.
As long as we had fun along the way it didn't really matter if it had any wider impact. The outcome is what is important, not trying to figure out what our part in it was (imo).
The member count we have already is evidence enough that we did something right all this time (for a forgotten army with no support).
No disagreement there. Its been a fun ride and looking to see where the future takes us.
don’t really post much, but here goes.
a lot of creativity comes from 2 main groups of people, those who oragnise the forum events, golden hats and artisans, and those who participate in them. this site is very lucky in that it has enough people in both camps. ive frequented other forums where the absence of one member can almost halt the creative aspect, i’m sure new releases from any source can only add a freshness to a healthy community. i first started my dawi befor this site started and have recently looked back on woh, jeees enough said. but as people move on and look for other projects " kyte " springs to mind and i know hes not the only one. some of my best times were in the nemesis crown campaign which had nothing to do with shiny models or guaranteed to win rules but this forum and its community.
I enjoyed wheeling out my dawi for the wow factor of playing the forgotten army and judging by the forge world models already gracing the table top at my club they’ll be a few more but nothing like the swelling of the skaven ranks, but i’m sure the new guys will be welcomed here and not just labelled as a “forger”. and long may the competitions and medals etc continue i think thats the essence of this site, and yeah the more active members of this site should enjoy a pat on the back, its chaos dwarfs, not dow, cathay, nippon, fishmen or new race and i’m sure thats not a coincidence
I echo what wilmark said I myself never got into Chaos Dwarfs for the obscure factor but for the chance that I could one day put something upon the table that few people could and have a great deal of fun doing so . Simply the hobby took me in a way to find something that I know from my own perspective annoy’s GW store mannagers. In fact proof in the pudding is m new fascination and love of squats comming out over on Space Dwarves Online but Im glad ot be part of this memberlist we got going here.
I also echo what grimstone fire says too with the statement that As long as we had fun along the way it didn’t really matter ? Right ? Well Chaos dwarves are here !!!
Baggronor does them
Mantic do them
Forge world copied Baggronor’s
but not to mention each and every member down this sites roster do something, From the copied attempts from tutorials on youtube and this site from the legend what was battle for skull pass, Tjubs huge map tacks on the top of heads, Grimstonefires scratch built ones out of green stuff, Zanko’s MM90 collection which some are probably older than most of the younger members on this site. We all do Chaos dwarves.
Now we can all sit here and bask in the glow of the forthcomming GW releases and boy they are nice or we can take a look at what we have here already. We already had the Big steam punk engines of N!tro on this site,
The path to glory of Baggronor Who has shown Forge world not to mention the design is a huge nod to him sad that they will never admit it. Artists, artisans, creaters, writters rules makers dreamers and painters. Some if not all are here and some if not all have something to teach.
We have had a place in so so many fluff sections of army books for such a long time without even a hint of return, Now we are back not via the main games workshop shops mail order with forge world we now have our footprint back. Now we have the chance to not only get our footprint back but we have the impetous to turn a single footprint into a full blown charge.
CDO has to me shown many people the way to go about making buying and building the Chaos Dwarf world but the work still isnt done.
Kudos Thorne, could not agree more!
I believe that people will continue to create their own Chaos Dwarfs, the standard of sculpting just went up, that’s all. To me, nothing has changed (although I am more of a hobbyist than an actual wargamer). The 3rd ed’s still rock, all the big hats are still classics and our scratchbuilt/converted armies are still cooler than anything WF makes, because they have a history and have earned themselves a special place in all our hearts, due to the amount of blood, sweat and tears that went into making, collecting and charishing then.
Jupp, agree with you Thorne. We had fun, and atleast I will keep doing my army even though Forge World make new models. Ill stick to tall hats, curled beards and comic over all feeling. Didnt really buy all that daemon binding talk anyway…
I see the releases, both rules and models, as new inspiration for future work!
Seconded Thorne! :hat off
I will continue to build up my Frurndar style army and just see the FW stuff as an inspiration
(and perhaps will buy some stuff) … not more and not less!
Good thread so far.
Well, like many others I too have lurked more than posted on CDO. I too have contributed as I have had time (WOH), and understand the feelings some of you must be feeling.
I began CD as my first army in 1996 (stangely enough i picked them because they were so rare even back then…), and have amassed a Huge big hat army, entirely painted. While I haven’t championed the cause as hard or as well as some of you had (just one battle report in WOH), I always had the suspicion that the CD would never be squatted. The efforts that members have put forth are/were amazing. For me personally there is relief. Finally the CD have seen the light of day. As i am a Tourny player as well, there is a certain satifaction that I have an army I can play that has been made by GW/WF. I never played the Indy list although I personally know Matt, he worked on my ranking site WarhammerUSA.com before I merged it with ranking HQ. The reason i didn’t play with the INDY book was, IF you won with it, you were playing a “fake” list. So while wildly successful in parts of the world, there wasn’t any penetration for it in the southern US. So by default I have been playing RH. My relief is at tournys I know which list they will allow, and can plan accordingly.
That said on the creative side, yes while some of the fluff and art feels redundant, it still proves to me that the players helped revive the chaos dwarfs.
Look at Grimstones statement, that WF felt compelled to release the models due to the demand. Who created that demand? the competitors couldn’t have either. The grass roots promoting and creativity (art, stories, greenstuff, forum etc etc) got players interested when they heard about the CDO website (however they did)
and that created demand, which gave rise to mantic,titan, and scibor. (and finally WF)
This was the goal, and we did it. Now that it’s accomplished, it does feel a bit weird. While I don’t have the bittersweet feelings of loss some of you have (and I would if i made army books, stories, art, that you have done)
there is a part of me that feels it sucks that SO many new players will join if the rules turn out really good. (i saw this happen with my dark elves from 6th to 7th) As it is, i have been waiting for this for 10 years, and 2 of the 3 players i regularly play with will begin the same month I will be; on the release of the book. what kind of playtesting new armies will that be?!! we will all have the same army. Boring…
That said, CDO will be different, maybe not worse, but different.
My 2 cents.
Without explaining the reasons why, I take back entirely what I said earlier about the importance of CDO. Seems we have been very important over the years…
And don´t forget, so far no one has really brought back the tall hats, so we still has that cause to fight
(and as I said before, so far we don´t have a proper armybook and we do need that before I say we are finshed, if even then)
Without explaining the reasons why, I take back entirely what I said earlier about the importance of CDO. Seems we have been very important over the years...
Has new information come to light about what WF have planned or is that just a reaction to this thread?
Also, I want to thank everyone for their reasoned comments on this topic so far. I was kind of depressed about where we were going when I started this thread, but it looks like a lot of people are still very optimistic about what the future holds. Ishkur's use of the term "bitter-sweet" is exactly the sentiment I think I'm feeling right now - it's all great, but there's a tinge of sadness, because we're maybe seeing the end of a period of intense creativity.
I also like what nagged said about creativity in some communities usually being driven by just a small group of people, or even just one individual. I've been part of forums like that before, where people were happy to join in as long as there was someone to drive everyone towards excellence, and as soon as his (i.e. my...) time and energy had to be diverted elsewhere, everything dried up. Being part of those communities was rewarding, in its way, but here at CDO I don't feel as if the whole thing would evaporate if I went away - or if Xander, Grim, Willmark, HB or whoever went away, more pertinently. So I think that goes a long way to reassuring me about our future.
I'm just glad to see so much optimism and positive sentiment in this thread.