[Archive] A hypothetical... after 8th ed. revision of the Indy GT book

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
21

saurus:

Mythos- I am not an expert in commecial law, so it is likely that you may be correct in what your stating. However, I think the problem is not that GW is likely to be wrong, but in case they did actually take you to court, you will have to pay for all those legal fees right upto the point of the final decision, to which you still may lose and end up paying GW’s legal fees too. Furthermore even if you win (which costs time) this verdict may be so important for GW that they may take it to a Court of Appeals in which you will have to fork out even more money to the point of another verdict. While ultimately you may pay nothing in legal costs, in the short run going to court is very expensive and can cost in cases like this tens of thousands of pounds.

Now who here can be bothered with that just so we can print off a nice version of the Indy GT list.

22

Servius:

Ok… Mythos… Heres my stick…

I have studied Commercial Contract and Copyright law. You can not reproduce Intellectual Property of another entity without express written consent of the IP owner. You must also address the IP in your publication as being owned by that entity.

The Story of the Chaos Dwarfs, How they were formed, the description of their culture and lands, their location of the Warhammer World, The Warhammer world, etc are IP of GW. You cant state that it isn’t

That said. GW won’t give you authorization flat and plain.

So you cant print. Also you nor anyone could profit from the production… this includes the printer… so beyond base product and labor costs the printer cant charge to you any more… Have fun finding a printer that is willing to print you off your books while not taking his normal margin profit on the production…

Lets say you find the printer and manage to remove the IP and GW tries to take you to court for IP infringment… Ok, so you need a lawyer based that this is commercial copyright law and you want to win. and are going up against a team of very good commercial lawyers you will want a good firm to defend… thats going to cost you in the ballpark of $3000 USD to retain the firms resources, plus research time which i would expect to be about another $2000 or so. You dont have to pay upfront court fees as your not pressing the charges. so you get to skip that one… now we come to negotiations… thats 2 lawyers… 3 hours or so… at around 400 and hour each… that $2400 dollars… and in the end GW drops charges…

Your out $7400 dollars… Nobody is going to take your case Pro Bono, and they wont waive the fees as no settlement or court win is going to be perceived… your just trying to get charges dropped…

Lets look at the score Bill…

Mythos: -$7400 GW:-$200 (court fees and paperwork fees)

GW lawyers are employees… and so get paid to FIND crap to do. they are doing their job… and 200 bucks to them to get you to stop producing something they perceive as removing revenue is a small price to pay if you stop… and they know you will pay lots more to get the GW monkey off your back

Welcome to Corporate Schenigans 101

Now that your bubble has been popped…

I personally have a very nice copy of Thommys and the IndyGT books… I got them done at kinkos on high quality paper and had the pages sent to a local binder to be “perfect” bound. It cost be about 30 bucks total for the binding of the 2 books and about 10 from kinkos total… about the same as a GW book with about the same quality (if not better as my books dont fall apart) I did it on my own… If GW wants to come after me… Fine thats between me and them… its not a group of people in the public eye that is easier to stop for them…

23

aka_mythos:

So you cant print. Also you nor anyone could profit from the production.. this includes the printer... so beyond base product and labor costs the printer cant charge to you any more... Have fun finding a printer that is willing to print you off your books while not taking his normal margin profit on the production...

Servius
*sigh* I'll take it to kinkos... in bulk.... I dunno what you wanna hear. Its a hypothetical situation.

For years and years, starting in the 20's and into 80's and 90's groups of fans of different books and music have produced their own literature, fanzines and books, that borrowed directly and indirectly from the things they loved as a group. Legally nothings changed. Only people's fear of the law. The way those groups got around the legal aspects is that their internal literature was not for public dissemination. Club dues or general subscription fees that were not directly paying for the literature but in fact used to cover those costs were collected and used.

Maybe I should have started the thread out... "what if we lived in a magical fairy land of rainbows and unicorns, where GW wouldn't care about a little fan made publication?"

I wish people weren't so adversarial. I wish people didn't feel they have to do GW's job for them. I wish people didn't feel they had to oppose a hypothetical situation. This is making a physical copy of something written by fans, that is already available; not something that should be opposed on face value.

This is about what something would be worth to you. For you it was obviously worth $40.
24

Baggronor:

Its not about doing GW’s job, or taking their side. Its just that they will absolutely give us hassle for it, 100%, and its just not worth it when we can just do our own copies of it.

For years and years, starting in the 20’s and into 80’s and 90’s groups of fans of different books and music have produced their own literature, fanzines and books, that borrowed directly and indirectly from the things they loved as a group. Legally nothings changed. Only people’s fear of the law. The way those groups got around the legal aspects is that their internal literature was not for public dissemination. Club dues or general subscription fees that were not directly paying for the literature but in fact used to cover those costs were collected and used.
Yeah but how many of those books and music were owned by the most evil company since Disney or Microsoft? You can approach an author and say, ‘Hey, we love your stuff, can we pay to make some fan-based bits and pieces?’ and he will likely say yes, but he isn’t a massive company with a team of bored lawyers.
This is making a physical copy of something written by fans, that is already available; not something that should be opposed on face value.
We would love to host such ventures on here, (like with the custom dice for example) but only the ones which we can condone without getting mugged by GW. Same with T-shirts; I have 3 CDO T-shirts, made by me. We wanted to make them here, but they kicked up a fuss. If you want to make one, take some of CDO’s artwork (with the permission of the artist ;P) and get one made. If you want to print Thommy’s book at the printers, you can do so (I will, once he releases the final version). But one of the few drawbacks of the public forum is that it is public and can be seen by GW as well as everyone else.

25

aka_mythos:

As a hypothetical it doesn’t really matter, but this is what a “nod and a wink” are for.

26

Xander:

Sometimes I wonder if we should have a dedicated section for Copyright, Trademark and Patent Law. It tends to derail topics sometimes, as people get into a debate about what is legal under current law versus what ought to be legal.

That said, I think a mass purchase of books is not likely to end well. Local printers do seem more than capable, however. I will likely be getting myself a copy of Thommy H’s new book and an 8th edition compliant version of the Indy GT list when it is done.

@Servius, I’d be interested to learn the exact purchase decisions you made regarding paper quality and binding. Do you have any links to the printing/binding decisions/companies you made. Any specifics would be great. Maybe a new thread about the best way to get such books printed locally would be a nice idea.

27

aka_mythos:

I agree… often times it gets bogged down in rumored understanding rather than how its actually exercised.

I think a thread on book printing would be worthwhile as well. For the overly cautious we can leave out the exact details about “what” is being printed and just use the quality of GW books as points of reference and comparisson. It’d be nice to see what “you tell a local printer…” to get something similar to a GW book.

Sections on paper selection (fiber, thickness, dimensions), print quality (color and/or dpi, boundary of no-print zone), book cover, and binding are what imediately come to mind.

28

Willmark:

Mythos- I like your enthusiasm however bear in mind you are talking about GW which is not only draconian about it but hyper defensive as well. GW is far, far worse then TSR wasin the 90s which was bat *hit crazy with lawsuits.

I like the hypothetical ascpect of your query but there is a history of the Staff having to deal with GW in such matters that most people are unaware of. All the community here is aware of is that we have had to make changes in the past.

In short don’t take it personally. :wink:

29

aka_mythos:

I don’t want to get you admins in trouble thats why it was a hypothetical thats purpose was only to pose what a printed copy of that pdf was worth to the community. It is not my intent in anyway to feel out the community for actually do anything described in the hypothetical. I wouldn’t want that hassle. The most would be to pursue the similar individual measure other members have mentioned having taken.

Beyond that I think its perfectly fair to create “how to” articles that help the community, but in and unto themselves don’t actually promote specific questionable actions. Just like how a how to sculpt chaos dwarf heads article or video would.  Informing is not promotion.

30

Willmark:

Yep I don’t think that’s an issue.

By way of example if you look at GWs IP rules even the Word of Hashut is in some gray areas, we’ve cleaned up most of it but their often contradictory rules means one thing, and then could be viewed as another.

I’m with with fan produced material. However the old stuff from the 50s didn’t quote have the reach that the Internet and torrents do. Add to the fact that most companies back then didn’t have the army of lawyers that most have now.

31

Spikes:

tl;dr

Fan made = free,

Made with the accord of GW and fully supported with FAQs = 50$+ up, seriously.

32

Servius:

*sigh* I'll take it to kinkos... in bulk.... I dunno what you wanna hear. Its a hypothetical situation.

aka_mythos
Kinkos still makes money.. if you think they don't your convoluted in your thinking... Even my books are essentally illegal copies of GW IP.. But its my personal copy and if GW wants to persue it.. have at it.
For years and years, starting in the 20's and into 80's and 90's groups of fans of different books and music have produced their own literature, fanzines and books, that borrowed directly and indirectly from the things they loved as a group. Legally nothings changed. Only people's fear of the law. The way those groups got around the legal aspects is that their internal literature was not for public dissemination. Club dues or general subscription fees that were not directly paying for the literature but in fact used to cover those costs were collected and used.

aka_mythos
For years and Years, starting in the dawn of time people would kill other people in private places without witnesses, they would also form groups in which would kidnap folk and kill them in basements for the enjoyment of the private group. The group fees werent used to kill the folk but it was used to buy the place and allow for the killings..

Im being a arse here.. but this is my point.. Just because its private doesnt make it Legal or Right.

Also you talk about Fear of the Law... Personally I don't fear the law.. I RESPECT the law. As Laws are in place for a reason. Its called Civilization. While everyone from time to time skirts the fine edge of legal and illegal and sometimes crossing it (like i did when printing my copies) as long as its a small step its fine.. your talking about taking a lead from first base that takes you 3 steps from home.. Your gonna get tagged.
Maybe I should have started the thread out... "what if we lived in a magical fairy land of rainbows and unicorns, where GW wouldn't care about a little fan made publication?"

aka_mythos
You could have... but I don't think it would have been an appropriate title.. your current one is fine.
I wish people weren't so adversarial. I wish people didn't feel they have to do GW's job for them. I wish people didn't feel they had to oppose a hypothetical situation. This is making a physical copy of something written by fans, that is already available; not something that should be opposed on face value.

aka_mythos
Wait, Let me get this straight... So you came on a public board to gauge an OPINION Poll. But when people give the opinion you don't personally agree with they are being adversarial? Really?

Heres my opinion if that is true.. you should abstain from asking opinions ever again on any public debate. Or should put an addendum in your future opinion polls like "If you disagree with me, get bent!" I mean really.. Your asking how much people are willing to pay for it.. ok that said.. why would you be asking how much people are willing to pay unless you were looking to sell or as you put it "provide" them.

We are simply giving you OPINIONS on what you want to do and you take it as hostile.. believe me.. Im not being hostile. Its a warning.. regardless of what you may think you can get away with.. I guarantee you cant afford to get the GW monkey off your back once its there. Why risk something like taking your own time and money, getting this stuff printed and bound for multitudes of people then provide it at cost on the internet where GW is assuredly going to see it, then get a S&D letter, If not instant litigation causing you to either pay GW recouped costs for perceived loss of revenue or pay a lawyer to defend your actual rights and get the charges dropped. I mean its a Lose/Lose scenario. You also put pressure on future fan made lists including the writers of the Indy GT list as they are going to be the first hassled about it by GW.
This is about what something would be worth to you. For you it was obviously worth $40.

aka_mythos
Actually, It was 20... you didnt read my post completely. I got 2 books made.

In ending.. I think your best bet.. is to get your own book made as it seems you want one. Then write a tutorial on how you went about it.. the costs involved and contacts to any people you found along the way that helped in the process.

I think people would be up for that.

BTW.. My books are also the same size as the Mini-Rulebook which is awesome but some people wont go for.. this option would allow for people to get their personal wants in their own copy.

In ending... I believe i will need a Disclaimer..

This post was in its intent to provide a response to the OP of the post in a manner in which i would have personally addressed in in face to face conversation. I use saracastic metaphors alot in my daily life and most find it amusing. Sometimes it is perceived as hostile in text as vocal tone is hard to protray in simple text.

I mean no offense towards the OP and feel he poses a good question, that evolved over conversation into new questions which, In my opinion should be addressed for the betterment of the community as a whole. ...This is what public discussion should ultimately do.

Xander.. Yeah ill look at home.. I know it was a bit of a hassle.. as i had to organize the pdf for book printing.. i.e. combine pg 1 with last page and work like that to the center.. and the indy GT was a hassle as it didnt have an even amount of pages so i made another showcase page. I did kinkos.. but normally they wont print without a written authorization from the writer.. I know a manager at one and she pushed it though. as far as the quality of paper it was Grade 2 Magazine Stock with 100lb weight i believe.. but dont quote me.. this was months ago. the covers were grade 1 im sure and i think 20lb weight more than the pages.. so 120lb.. but without my stuff i cant be definate.. the Binder was local and did it as a favor. I went perfect bound (they perferate the center of the page (each page shows 2
then they use a machine to inject hot glue into the binding inside the cover and it links the pages together. they then trim the edges. it looks awesome in the end and is more durable than simple staple binding but it costs more usually. He is a fellow player and i got it at cost as i setup the new dark elf book to be done the same way..

The hardest part was really making the PDF to give to the printer.. as it had to be to exacting specs and had to have the extra paper in the pages for binding etc. I could write a tutorial.. but would love for someone else to.. as it was an ordeal to say the least.
33

Spikes:

Well Servius, you just scored a critical hit!

34

Grimstonefire:

If GW were to publish this with no input whatsoever and it had not been made available before I’d say I’d pay around £5-6.

Now I would only pay whatever it cost to have it printed (nothing fancy, just a staple binding).

Admittedly the forum rules on this sort of thing are for models, but the way this thread was written was inviting people to participate/ gathering interest.  Which would be pretty much the same thing as advertising anyway for something you/me/we don’t own the legal rights to (even if the seller in this case is hypothetical).

It was sufficiently obscurely written to warrant leaving open…  for now.

Can people only comment on what they feel is the intrinsic value if it in book form from now on please.

The forum rules will be updated in light of this to include invitations to purchase/ interest gathering.

35

cornixt:

I’d pay a little more than a proper GW book to get one of the fan lists done. I also did lots of fiddling with pages to see if I could get one of the online companies to make thE Indy GT one, but gave up in the end since it became too much bother. It didn’t actually come out as costing very much, but with all the problems with page numbering to get it to fit correctly I didn’t see it as worth it. If they were to conveniently provide the separate files for the covers and insides for the 8th edition rewrite then I’d certainly consider it again.