[Archive] A hypothetical... after 8th ed. revision of the Indy GT book

aka_mythos:

The Indy GT book, is the closest thing we have to a widely accepted “book.” With 8th edition, there is an effort to update this publication. This and a number of other books written by the CDO community, have enough quality to be worthy of being published in a more tangible way. I’m a bit old fashioned I like having a physical book.

Now a days there are more and more companies that specialize in low-run book printing. Usually with a minimum order of between 200 and 500 copies. I imagine it might be interesting to approach this how a lot of groups have approached getting custom dice made. Its largely for fun, but also just one more way building the community sentiment thats already here.

:idea So my question is this… once the “book” gets updated would there be enough intrest in getting a printed and bound low-run printing done as a “club” or private publication? And what type of at-cost price would would it be worth to people? For the sake of the poll, assume GW quality printing.

For me this just largely hypothetical but I bring it up for the CDO community because I feel there exists the organization, the sense of community, and dedicated fanbase here that would warrant such an effort and stands the best bet of making it possible.

warh:

I would buy one… but GW would not allow it :frowning:

Khaosbeardling:

I’d do it.

This message was automatically appended because it was too short.

aka_mythos:

I would buy one.... but GW would not allow it :(

warh
This is why I was very specific in my wording. It is already "available" online. This is just a different format. No different than if you printed off your own printer. No different than if you went to a Cyber-lounge or Xerox or Kinkos and had them print it for you. Its just a nicer printer service that puts a real binding instead of cheap plastic rings. In this instance it would be a private periodical available in two different formats, one free and one at cost. No profit, its merely being put in a nicer format.

Nicodemus:

Would raise the ire of GW for shizzle.  The only way to do it would be for free, and even then it can be a fine like with GW IP.  If any amount of money changed hands at all, unless maybe it was explicitly for shipping only (and you might need everything clearly documented and receipts just in case) there would be no way to prove that you’re only charging for materials and time spent on preparation of the document, etc… because at the end of the day money is changing hands for work derived from GW’s intellectual property and they’ll be all over it.

It’s not that I think there is intent of any of the parties involved to make a profit, but there also can’t be any allowance for the possible perception of impropriety. That’s an important distinction.

Lots of other companies are flexible and just glad to have fan support, but GW legal scares the pants off me.

~N

Gar Shadowfame:

shipment of unooficial AB that bases on GW IP in fact is bringing profits to shipping company and is against GW license:(

Thommy H:

Yeah, copyright is the issue here.

aka_mythos:

GW’s “legal” team uses scare tactics. 99% of the stuff they write is a misapplication of their rights that exceed what they have rights for. They use bully tactics to get what they want. I’ve known people who were sent things from GW’s legal team, who had lawyers look at it and the lawyers laughed at it. Thats how poor GW actually is. In terms of this specific situation, of a fan made book made available to the community that assembled it, its never been addressed in court.

The critical aspect of this is that it would end up as a privately disseminated. Not available to the public. Printed in a single run, at cost. It wouldn’t be hard to prove the at cost either. If X people sign up, and Y copies are printed X/Y= the amount collected from each; if its different there is something wrong. It is no different than when people get custom made dice with ork glyphs on them, in terms of the economics.

I’m not asking about the hurdles and that really isn’t the topic. This is just “what’s “it” worth”?

aka_mythos:

shipment of unooficial AB that bases on GW IP in fact is bringing profits to shipping company and is against GW license:(

Gar Shadowfame
This for example, what you are talking about isn't covered by copyright laws and has nothing to do with it. As far as copyright law is concerned whats being transported is a box of blank paper. It is only the author, editor, or seller of the infringing work that cannot make money. In this instance, the author and editor have done the work for free, and their is no seller. There is a collection of private individuals contracting to have something printed for themselves. GW would have to prove that this would detrimentally impact their future profitability, while the simple fact is there is no doubt that if GW printed an AB 10 minute after this hypothetically were, there isn't a single person who wouldn't buy theirs.

IF it is wrong, if it is infringing to have something privately printed as a individuals for private use; then it is equally wrong to host a pdf form of it. Both organizing printing it at cost and allowing downloads are viewed as equal attempts at dissemination. So they are either both allowed or both disallowed.

Baggronor:

GW's "legal" team uses scare tactics. 99% of the stuff they write is a misapplication of their rights that exceed what they have rights for. They use bully tactics to get what they want. I've known people who were sent things from GW's legal team, who had lawyers look at it and the lawyers laughed at it. Thats how poor GW actually is. In terms of this specific situation, of a fan made book made available to the community that assembled it, its never been addressed in court.
Regardless of the nitty-gritty, the single, overriding factor is that it will likely bring negative attention from GW to CDO. We don't want any more of that, we've already been hit with the IP stick once.

aka_mythos:

That is why this is just hypothetical. GW wants you to fear them. So you fear them. There is always a choice. What you thought was a stick was really a twig.

Just an FYI… one self publishing site priced a full colored hard bound 90 page low quantity run at $33 as the cost per book.

Khan!:

That is why this is just hypothetical. GW wants you to fear them. So you fear them. There is always a choice. What you thought was a stick was really a twig.

Just an FYI... one self publishing site priced a full colored hard bound 90 page low quantity run at $33 as the cost per book.

aka_mythos
Hm, could you provide some links/citations? I don't mean to be impolite. It seems to me that it would just be wise to be fully informed and prepared to deal with the consequences, if anyone decides to go ahead with a project like the one you are proposing.

For the record tho, I wouldn't be interested in anything other than downloading a pdf myself.

Xander:

Ya, they didn’t like us collectively ordering T-Shirts and distributing them. That’s how weird they are.

This would be hard to pull-off.

Nicodemus:

I don’t think CDO as an on-line entity (if it is one) or the admins themselves can condone anything like this after the t-shirt happenings… but what individual members organize amongst themselves off-line (i.e. not organized on the forums) is totally up to them and in that case I think it’s much safer and highly unlikely to ruffle any feathers.

So with that in mind I don’t see any problem with the poll and trying to come to grips with who would want a printed book. I’ve printed my own version of the Indy GT book on high quality paper from a colour laser printer when it was first released and then slotted it into plastic page sleeves and stuck it in a 3-ring binder. … made my own t-shirt too gosh darn it :wink:

~N

mattbird:

The pdf file is fully printable by any number of online print on demand shops. You can already have your own copy printed up for around $20. I would think so long as you are not selling them, or making them available for purchase through a print on demand site, you would be fine?

Khaosbeardling:

The pdf file is fully printable by any number of online print on demand shops. You can already have your own copy printed up for around $20. I would think so long as you are not selling them, or making them available for purchase through a print on demand site, you would be fine?

mattbird
That's what I'd think.

AGPO:

Purely because we have had previous encounters with GW legal and have no wish to repeat the experience or the hassle. In former events, Word of Hashut went down for some time following IP issues, and the t-shirt fiasco was another example of us having to spend time over legal issues rather than working on improving things here. I think I speak for all of the staff when I say that none of us would be willing to take legal proceedings any further following contact from GW legal - we’re busy people with ordinary lives.

As Mattbird says, you can have a private copy made by a print on demand service, and it would look great. However, any handling of money, even without profit puts us on shakey ground. We could certainly never host it on the site.

Inquisitor:

another thing to bear in mind is that GW is based in the UK, CDO, I gather is hosted out of the UK, while I am not 100 percent on the differences, I do know that companies have a heavier hand under IP law in the UK than they do in the US or Canada, where the law carefully circumscribes the powers of a company/individual to take legal actions against percieved threats to their intellectual property.

I would have to say the admins are probably correct syaing that the best course of action for CDO would be to steer clear entirely.

my two cents

aka_mythos:

GW relies on fear and the lack of time for individuals to deal with them. Its just important to realize it doesn’t diminish how wrong they are. Comply, but comply knowing you’re still right. That’s the main distinction I think people need to be aware of; that individuals don’t comply because GW is right, but because the legal system is a hassle.

I am curious what aspect of the T-shirt design they were “grumpy” about? If GW had it their way they’d like you to believe the concept of evil dwarfs didn’t exist till they wrote it.

In general, my thought is that you would set it up with an online printer and simply provide a link for anyone interested. People would sign up with the print house, similar to on demand, but without the continual availability of “on demand” it would be a one time thing. The only thing anyone “here” would do is provide the file and get a hand count of interested parties to see if it was worth the effort. The only real things gained is a standard of quality and a level of consistency to act as unifying factor for the community. If those things don’t matter, there isn’t much to gain. I just think a lot of effort was put into some of these fan made army books and where there is clear consensus on a book’s quality, its a nicer way of honoring that effort.

The simple legal fact is making it available through a printer is no different than making it available for download. The fan community army book is no different than the fan-zines. If one is in violation, than they all are.

This thread wasn’t intend to run through the legal hurdles as much as it was to see how much value people see in the awesome collective works that these army books represent. Some people see crowd sourced efforts will be the future; this army book is an example of a prototypical effort that will eventually become that idealized future. There are many legal scholars who now question the nature of IP laws, that reward subtle ripping off and destructive reworking over those that pay homage and try to progress intellectual works.

aka_mythos:

another thing to bear in mind is that GW is based in the UK, CDO, I gather is hosted out of the UK, while I am not 100 percent on the differences, I do know that companies have a heavier hand under IP law in the UK than they do in the US or Canada, where the law carefully circumscribes the powers of a company/individual to take legal actions against percieved threats to their intellectual property.

I would have to say the admins are probably correct syaing that the best course of action for CDO would be to steer clear entirely.

my two cents

Inquisitor
As far as CDO distributing PDFs it would come down to what country the server is in. As far as printing and distribution, it would depend on where the printing is done. Just because GW is in the UK doesn't make us constrained by UK law. Canadian law for example is more allowing, by giving more protections to fair use. US law would give even more latitude if its written to parody or critique some aspect of GW or their Chaos Dwarf book... easy enough to say you parody their lack of promised yet absent support. I'm not saying anything is clear cut, and I understand CDO's desire to steer clear, but its better to make it clear that its out of "trying to keep GW friendly" or "fear" than to let people to falsely assume GW is automatically write just because they sent a form letter that's poorly written.

Chapterhouse, started making resin bits that the advertised were directly compatible with specific GW models. GW sent several C&Ds. Chapterhouse got a lawyer and GW backed down. I'm not saying it will always happen this way, just that it shows how GW is willing to act like it has better stance than it does.

If you actually read GW's legal statement, they actually claim rights to any and all conversions you make to your models, the pictures you take of those converted models, and reserve the right to prevent you from reselling such work. You can either live believing you don't really own what you buy or that you own the model. My point is GW's legal statement is full of absurdities that fly in the face of how law is actually carried through.