[Archive] a Q and a rant

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
21

Willmark:

There is nothing to prevent them from adding it to White Dwarf, nothing its not like they are putting quality content in it anyways. Sure the production vaules look great, its is well laid out, great photos and minis, blah, blah, blah, and it also has no soul, at least not anymore.

I do agree with Thommy on one thing I don’t think its coincidence that the chaos dwarfs are being mentioned in so many places. Phil basically alluded to that in our face to face conversation.

GW is in no way shape or form going to tell us what they are planning, not even the Staff, if they even know we exist. They might but I doubt that they are looking all that hard here, at least not yet. Its odd to because its not like the release schedule which already leaks out and is supposed to be some top secret thing that they can’t share. Lack of transparency only works well for one company on earth that I can think of: Apple. Love um or hate them Apple is the master at this bar none. They buzz the generate by not saying anything is astounding. GW seems to be trying this and fails miserably at this.

Where I disagree with Thommy is the like and dislike: I like the games that GW makes, not the company. I don’t have to like GW to like Warhammer.

Now as to what form in terms of the army will they be that is anyone’s guess.

As always YMMV with my remarks.

22

CheTralfara:

How in the world could a boom in sales of BFSP be a bad thing? Sure it’s alot of miniatures for a low price, but they wouldn’t be selling it that way if they didn’t want people to buy it.

Over the last 5 issues, we had a 2-part article “Warhammer: Raids” spread over 2 White Dwarfs. This article was completely non-army-specific, and I really fail to see how it could generate any new sales of anything beyond MAYBE torch plastic bitz for the new “torch-bearer” unit type, and the collector’s “Orc Raider” with pig & torch model. That’s almost nothing, and they spread that over 2 White Dwarfs. There is no requirement for a White Dwarf article to sell more models. You will see a long precedent of articles that do not sell anything more than usual. A Chaos Dwarf get-you-by list would likely generate more new sales than any other type of non-advertisement warhammer fantasy article they could write.

By making our Chaos Dwarf tournament list illegal for use in Grand Tournaments, they DO owe us (a customer base that has paid lots of money to collect, create, a buy an entire supported army) a new list.

Why are people constantly claiming the chaos dwarf army is unsupported? Up until recently they were legal in tournaments, had an update in the Ravening Hordes list, were updated when the Orcs & Goblins book was released, are being mentioned in many army books, had new models created for a chaos campaign. How does this qualify as unsupported? We’re talking about an army that has been endorsed as a reason to buy warhammer models all the way up to our latest rulebook!

When GW updates an armylist, allows it at tournaments, and then lists it in the back of the official rulebook, and keeps the army “warhammer legal” with each edition, they are expecting, endorsing, and advertising that customers SHOULD and CAN buy, collect, and create an army of Chaos Dwarf models. It takes little imagination to use the current range to create chaos dwarfs, and GW knows this. They definitely owe us an update. A company’s success depends on the satisfaction of their customers in order to survive. The idea that must simply put up with whatever the company gives you and buy it anyway, is the very antithesis of capitalism.

Heated? why must it be heated just because people are disagreeing with each other. Discussing and examining conflicting viewpoints is how progress is born. I haven’t seen anything but calm and reasonable points being made. However Tommy H shouldn’t be saying something like his viewpoint is right because it’s based on logic. I’ve seen so many threads go sour by dishing out “but I use logic… so i must be right”. Let’s be respectful of each other.

.nick

23

Thommy H:

had an update in the Ravening Hordes list, were updated when the Orcs & Goblins book was released
You know that happened in, like, 2001, right? When 6th Edition was first released? Chaos Dwarfs have been in limbo ever since.
I've seen so many threads go sour by dishing out "but I use logic... so i must be right"
I'm not trying to be right, I'm just trying to give a balanced view here. I don't think it's productive to just bash GW, which seems to be pretty much the way threads like this always go. Everyone acts like GW have screwed Chaos Dwarf players and have somehow been unfair, when in fact there's no logical reason they should support an unsuccessful army that was released over a decade ago and was never significantly updated. We shouldn't be lamenting the fact that Chaos Dwarfs are suddenly dead (they've been dead for a long time...) but celebrating the fact that they're still twitching and might resurrect, Jesus-like, in the not too distant future.

Ironically, the guy disagreeing with everyone is the optimist in this situation...
24

two_heads_talking:

The problem with replying to a rant, is that no matter how positive the reply, no matter how official the answer, no matter how it’s put on paper, it won’t appease the ranter unless the ranter gets it all.

I’m sorry, but your rant has been answered and reanswered and rebutted many times. Many of us feel the same, but we’ve let the heat out of barrel, so to speak, and put our energies into something we can control.

If you feel so obliged, do send your comments to GW, just don’t be surprised if nothing happens. GW has said that if they release an army, it will be an all out release, not a get you by release. so, with that said, why would they release a get you by release just for the CD’s? They won’t. They’ve said that, all the screaming and hollering and rolling on the floor kicking and screaming won’t change that.

25

theimmortal:

but saying tht  they have realease get you by lists for sevaral armies before, the wood elves, bretonians, and even hoc for some

i do hope that they do do one but honestly im doubting it…

they did sayy no more wd lists

and there has been a second orc & goblin list since the update also…

26

Thommy H:

but saying tht they have realease get you by lists for sevaral armies before, the wood elves, bretonians, and even hoc for some
The difference there is that those lists were for armies that already had models in stores. They were necessary. A Chaos Dwarf list, even some half-assed White Dwarf one, would always be a gamble.

Let them lay the groundwork and do Chaos Dwarfs when the casual gamers are interested. I would hate it if this website became an anti-GW stronghold. How would that help the cause of Chaos Dwarfs?
27

cornixt:

Analogy

"Dad, could you pick me up a bottle of X since you are going to the store"

“I don’t trust you to pay me back if I do. Make do with the drink you have”

“You keep buying the flavors my sister likes, and she doesn’t always pay you back anyway.”

“Drink it or go without, I’ll just buy stuff for your sister again. Maybe I’ll buy some you like one day”

28

two_heads_talking:

Analogy

"Dad, could you pick me up a bottle of X since you are going to the store"
"I don't trust you to pay me back if I do. Make do with the drink you have"
"You keep buying the flavors my sister likes, and she doesn't always pay you back anyway."
"Drink it or go without, I'll just buy stuff for your sister again. Maybe I'll buy some you like one day"

cornixt
I'm gonna say it.. WTF???
29

Filipicusius:

I got to agree with two heads on this one. I really don’t get it…

30

cornixt:

“GW, could you release a new CD armylist since you are going to publish WD anyway”

“I don’t trust you to buy miniatures if I do. Make do with the models/armies we have already published”

“You keep publishing list for armies everyone else likes, and they don’t always buy miniatures anyway.”

“Use them or don’t play officially, I’ll just keep releasing the same armies again. Maybe I’ll do a CD armylist one day”

31

Thommy H:

The analogy only works if you assume that Games Workshop should love you unconditionally like a father…

They don’t owe you anything.

Chaos Dwarfs didn’t sell well enough when they were in general circulation to make them a safe enough proposition today. Games Workshop don’t care about you: they care about your wallet. And, the great thing for them is that, no matter how disillusioned we get, we still keep coming back for more, don’t we? Everyone here saying how much they hate GW has still lined their pockets by buying stuff from them to play an army that doesn’t even officially exist any more.

You love GW so much that you even buy their products when they don’t sell what you want! Why should they pander to you when you’re such gluttons for punishment anyway? :stuck_out_tongue:

32

Willmark:


The analogy only works if you assume that Games Workshop should love you unconditionally like a father...

They don't owe you anything.

Chaos Dwarfs didn't sell well enough when they were in general circulation to make them a safe enough proposition today. Games Workshop don't care about you: they care about your wallet. And, the great thing for them is that, no matter how disillusioned we get, we still keep coming back for more, don't we? Everyone here saying how much they hate GW has still lined their pockets by buying stuff from them to play an army that doesn't even officially exist any more.

You love GW so much that you even buy their products when they don't sell what you want! Why should they pander to you when you're such gluttons for punishment anyway? :P


Thommy H
I for one would love it if there was serious competition to GW. Failure of GW wouldn't be the end of Warhammer, hardly, if they fail their IP will be snatched up by someone...

Its not to say I want them to fail, I would just like them to be more transparent as a company.
33

Maul:

When GW’s stock plummeted a year or so ago, we (local gaming group) were hoping that a company like Hasbro would pounce. They did after all buy up Wizards of the Coast (Magic the Gathering & D&D). The death of TSR has probably done good things for D&D because a consistent release schedule and the much wider spread distribution of the game. That future is possible.

34

cornixt:

You love GW so much that you even buy their products when they don't sell what you want! Why should they pander to you when you're such gluttons for punishment anyway? :P

Thommy H
As if! Apart from BFSP I've not spent a thing on GW in two years and I doubt they make any profit on that at all. It's not as if I'm boycotting them, they just haven't come up with anything I want. If they'd released something more CD related (even a WD) then they'd have my cash already. Until then, I'm happy with the models I have (maybe when the Daemon Prince comes out...). People don't just spend money on GW because they have money, it is to get stuff they like.

After you've invested in GW, it is harder to switch to something else. Switching means losing use of most of the stuff you have already bought, and the more people like you that there are, the more inertia there is to move to some new and unproven system.
35

Maul:

cornixt, I hear you on the inertia thing. I once had a massive Clan Wars Crane army and found that game to be a better gaming system then warhammer, but it could just never get the momentum up and eventually died. I was lucky to unload it on ebay to some other collector for good money. I have been tempted by other gaming systems, but Clan Wars taught me a lesson.

36

CheTralfara:

It’s not that I’m not satisfied by the responses. I’m not looking for satisfaction in the responses, but I do have to repeat myself alot. Because the model line does in fact exist already. There would be no need to create new miniatures, and the fact that at least 2 Chaos Dwarf armies have attended each GT they were allowed (I’ve even seen a 40k chaos dwarf GT army!), the hellcannon, and this site do in fact prove there is actually a demand. A demand that represents a portion of customers that GW does in fact have a responsibility to please.

Games Workshop don’t care about you: they care about your wallet. And, the great thing for them is that, no matter how disillusioned we get, we still keep coming back for more, don’t we?
This couldn’t be farther from the truth. No one on here has said they hated GW, and this quote above is the most hateful thing towards GW in the entire thread. The quote above does not apply to GW at all, no matter how bad they fail to please customers, they have a responsibility to please them, and always will. If a portion of their customers has a demand to play and buy chaos dwarfs (even if it is only to convert them from existing models), then GW does have a responsibility to please those customers and keep them satisified. If you disagree with this paragraph, then you should to take a course on Capitalism as what you said above is the exact opposite of how a business works, no matter how much it might seem that way.

and as pointed out above, GW has done Get-You-By lists for several other armies (also add Blood Angels to the list of G-Y-B WD lists) that are far more complicated and have much more units than Chaos Dwarfs. To simply update the broken parts of our list so that it is tournament legal would be one of the best business decisions they could make right now. No other 1 article could generate more sales of already existing models than a Chaos Dwarf converting & tournament-legal armylist-update article.
The difference there is that those lists were for armies that already had models in stores. They were necessary. A Chaos Dwarf list, even some half-assed White Dwarf one, would always be a gamble.
Not true, a gamble would require them to have something to lose. They have absolutely no new models to produce as the models already exist. And the “difference” does not exist, because Chaos Dwarfs DO have models already in the stores, as many of us have been saying over and over.
Let them lay the groundwork and do Chaos Dwarfs when the casual gamers are interested.
Not only are casual gamers already intrested, but the entire purpose of the article would be to generate intrest. I doubt there was some huge group of “casual gamers” (what are we then?) begging GW to release an army of Ogres when Ogre Kingdoms came out. No, the more likely possibility is that Gulfag’s Ogres were probably the best selling Dogs Of War unit, and GW used this opportunity to generate MORE demand by CREATING an army list. Obviously the Hellcannon has been selling well or it would not likely have been included in the latest Chaos Warriors army book. There you have it, just 1 of many examples of Chaos Dwarf interest from the “casual gamers”.

Before I found out that Chaos Dwarfs were illegal in tournaments, I was purposely making my entire army ALL GW models. Now that I know they aren’t legal in tournaments, I have no reason to buy only GW models and could buy from any number of the other companies that produce greenskins and chaos dwarfs. This is how capitalism works. Games Workshop is not a monopoly, and if they are displeasing a portion of their customers, then those customers will go elsewhere and Games Workshop loses business. They cannot access our wallets without pleasing us first. Most people aren’t going to buy a model they don’t like or army with rules they hate or rules that are now deemed illegal. It goes against good business practice to exclude a portion of their customers who spent lots of money on their models to create an army that is officially listed in the rulebook. If GW didn’t intend for their customers to spend money on existing models to convert their army then they wouldn’t have updated the rules, and would have let them die in 5th edition. We are not lucky that we are being mentioned or supported at all. We are unlucky that GW advertises us as a legitimate army in rulebooks and armylists, and then leaves us to rot.

.nick

37

Thommy H:

they have a responsibility to please them, and always will
Not true.

They're not a charity: they're not providing a service to you. They're just a company that sells things. You can either choose to buy their products or not buy their products. They don't have to give you what you want - they just sell what they sell, and you, as a customer, vote with your wallet.

So if you don't like it, don't give them your business. If Chaos Dwarf players are such a significant portion of the customer base, then market forces will eventually make GW reassess their strategy, right? But if, as I believe, we represent a very small and absurdly loyal niche of the market, it won't make a difference to anything and until a Chaos Dwarf release is profitable we won't see them. And it won't become profitable until the rest of the customer base has the concept of Chaos Dwarfs drummed into their heads by those background elements that are increasingly creeping in or a certain website keeps putting out quality content that increases the profile of the army.

Complaining and expecting special treatment will achieve nothing.
38

CheTralfara:

When your customers have spent hundreds of dollars to create an army that you endorsed with official rules, you kind of do have a responsibility not to crap all over them by illegalizing their army list.

They are providing a service. A company providing retail falls under the definition of service, and part of customer service is making sure your customers are satisfied with their product. Finding out that my army is unable to attend officially sanctioned events (a significant part of the gaming community) has me dissatisfied, and I’m not the only one.

No one ever said they HAVE to give us a legal and up-to-date army list, only that it’d be good business practice & customer service to do so. I also shouldn’t have to restate the arguements that regardless of the size of the current chaos dwarf customer-base, that single hypothetical WD armylist/article is liable to explode sales of existing models and largely increase the demand for chaos dwarf models.

You’d be suprised at how the impact of customer complaints form the root of change.

39

Maul:

I agree with CheTralfara.

You could do a get you by list in WD and add in a article on how to convert chaos dwarf models from existing GW range models. GW could use it as an opportunity to sell green-stuff and modeling supplies. They could spread that out over a few issues. GW could couple that with releasing the hell cannon crew as a collectors buy on the website. Take CD from obscurity and make them a collectors or modelers army. The big problem is this would make more sense back when there was a bits order program.

CD Warriors=BFSP warriors, Dwarf Warriors, chaos warriors

Blunderbuss=Thunderers?

Hobgoblins=goblin, night goblins, gnoblars

Wolf Riders=goblin wolf riders

Orcs=Orcs

Black Orcs=Black orcs

Sneaky Gits=(I like night goblins with weapons off the plauge monk sprue)

The big problem as I see it would be be bull centaurs and the monsters.

40

two_heads_talking:

When your customers have spent hundreds of dollars to create an army that you endorsed with official rules, you kind of do have a responsibility not to crap all over them by illegalizing their army list.

They are providing a service. A company providing retail falls under the definition of service, and part of customer service is making sure your customers are satisfied with their product. Finding out that my army is unable to attend officially sanctioned events (a significant part of the gaming community) has me dissatisfied, and I'm not the only one.

No one ever said they HAVE to give us a legal and up-to-date army list, only that it'd be good business practice & customer service to do so. I also shouldn't have to restate the arguements that regardless of the size of the current chaos dwarf customer-base, that single hypothetical WD armylist/article is liable to explode sales of existing models and largely increase the demand for chaos dwarf models.

You'd be suprised at how the impact of customer complaints form the root of change.

CheTralfara
Then send those complaints in to customer service. As you might have noticed, we all share the same desire. Some of us have been through it before and dealing with it the way we'd like. If you want to get up in arms, and post up in front of the GW headquarters with your minions and signs, stating "we want a legal CD army list, and we want it now." Feel free to do just that.

Just don't expect that all of us will jump into your bandwagon and head on over there with you. In other words, if you want to do something, do it, quit talking about how upset you are and what you'd like GW to do. Put it in writing.

As the old folks say. Put up or shut up. All your GW wishes will do you no good here, besides let usknow, what we already to for anyone willing to sign up for a forum dedicated to CDs and that's that you like them and want to play with them.

I play with my army and use the list as it is and in most local tournaments that I want to join, they let me use it. I am not a national or international tournament goer, so the rest doesn't bother me at all.