[Archive] a Q and a rant

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
1

CheTralfara:

2 questions…

A. in the orcs & goblins army book, it says that goblin wolf riders lose their “fast cavalry” status if they take shields. Curiously though, this rule does not apply to Hobgoblin Wolfriders, according to our RH army list… Does this rule apply to hobbos too (possibly via wording in the rulebook?) or do hobbos really have an immunity to this for (broken) reasons unknown…?

B. i was really excited at the idea of one day using my Chaos Dwarf army in a US GT… now I find out that that is impossible. Besides the fact that they are directly excluding people who have bought hundreds of dollars worth of citadel miniatures to create their chaos dwarf army from dwarfs and greenskins… they are directly excluding an entire army that is still official as far as the rulebook is concerned. I think the whole excuse that our list is outdated has got to be the worst excuse of all, when we are going to be underpowered vs. army book armies, no matter what. So how in the world would it effect anything negatively to allow Chaos Dwarfs? It’s impossible to use something like 75% of our units as a counts-as Dwarfs list… not to mention the insulting of implication of the idea.

Am I preaching to the choir? Should I be complaing to GW about this instead of ranting on here?

Also, this whole concept of completely excluding an army because they haven’t updated the list (A 2-PAGE LIST!) in a while… Wouldn’t a reasonable person think that rather than excluding a percentage of their customer base (no matter how small), they should make a White Dwarf update? How hard would it be to dedicate some time on a “get you by” army list “article” while giving every warhammer player out there a new exciting reason to collect dwarf and greenskin miniatures and loads of GW brand green stuff?

They could even dedicate an entire portion to converting Chaos Dwarfs using the current range.

:hat CD warriors = more sales of plastic dwarf warriors, dwarf thunderers, dwarf miners, mauraders, and chaos warriors!!! (that’s alot of boxes!)

:h Hobgoblins = more sales of flagellants (for the bodies) and night goblins (for the heads) … or the standard goblin box set

:h Hobbo Wolfriders = more sales of goblin wolf rider boxset

:hashut Bull Centaurs = sales of Blood Bowl bull centaur star player. or (like i’m using) sales of bitz-order “medieval horses” for converting into bull bodies + MORE dwarf warriors/miners boxes for upper body.

:h Bolt Throwers = more sales of goblin bolt thrower

:mask Earthshaker = more sales of Hellcannon or Ork Mortar cannon

:mask Death Rocket = more sales of 40k Ork stormboy packs or rocket launchers.

EVERYTHING in a CD army can be converted using existing citadel miniatures, and my army is living proof of that (well not exactly living… :sick).

Moral: GW HAS EVERYTHING to gain by making a tournament allowed update of the Chaos Dwarf 2-page army list (note to GW: hand over the hellcannon!)

.nick

2

theimmortal:

okay, i agree a list thats tornement playable would be lovley, maybe they could do a white dwarf feture on converting it, i mean kroot army anyone, this would really help us, pluss they would see how much ppl convert to make a CD army, to see if its feasable to make a new one

they could even release the Colectors figure to co incide with it, i mean id buy one of those old lords wouldnt you?

3

Thommy H:

Does this rule apply to hobbos too (possibly via wording in the rulebook?) or do hobbos really have an immunity to this for (broken) reasons unknown...?
Hobgoblins are always fast cavalry, yes. They shouldn't be, as you rightly point out, but if you read the other Ravening Hordes lists you'll see that the same applies to all fast cavalry there. Long story short, they didn't have space to put in exceptions. Everyone else got Armies books that added the caveat about fast cavalry having an armour save no better than 5+ (which used to be a rule in 5th Edition when fast cavalry was simply defined as "cavalry with an armour save of 5+ or worse") but since Chaos Dwarfs still use this "get you by" list, they get a sizeable advantage. You're correct in that it's broken (which is why I often cite Hobgoblin Wolf Riders as the best unit in the game), but since they have disadvantages like a unit size of 10+ and they don't count as compulsory Core, it's not really that big a deal.
when we are going to be underpowered vs. army book armies, no matter what
Not true. Ld 10 Heroes...fast cav with a 4+ armour save and the Earthshaker is very powerful indeed because its rules are so simple. I annihilated a Dark Elf army because I stopped them moving wherever they wanted with its effect. Some would argue that the Chaos Dwarf army is actually pretty tough. It lacks the options that other lists do, but that does not in itself make a given army list weaker.
they should make a White Dwarf update? How hard would it be to dedicate some time on a "get you by" army list "article"
Without models? GW won't provide rules for things you have to go on ebay to find figures for. It just doesn't fit in with their business model. And they won't release new figures, or the old figures, unless they know they'll sell. Remember: Chaos Dwarfs didn't sell well in the past, so there's no evidence that a new release - even a paltry White Dwarf update - would be better than throwing money down a well.

But to move onto your broader point.

1) Tournaments are not the be-all-and-end-all of "official", nor does GW head office preside over the tournament rules in the way that people seem to think they do. Tournament organisers - even the organisers of the official GW tournaments - set their own rules and limits. Do you think Phil Kelly or Matt Ward are coming up with the rules for a tournament happening on another continent? It sucks that you can't use your army, but that doesn't mean GW are missing a trick or something.

2) The Chaos Dwarf rules are no longer easy to find online. GW have taken them out of circulation for the perfectly valid reason that they're outdated and the models are no longer sold by GW. They've said before that they don't want to provide rules for things that people can't buy - it goes against their business model. Since GW don't host the rules, that means that tournament players can't find these rules and prepare for the possibility of facing them. It's not fair on the other players to throw them against an army they may never even have heard of and which, at the very least, they are unlikely to have rules for.

Now, I get that you're unhappy, but this is not GW screwing you. It's not unfair, it's just unfortunate.
4

Willmark:

CheTralfara

You have hit upon my contention: that the parts already exist for CDs through all the existing model lines, all you have to do is assemble them. Unfortunately GW doesn’t see it that way. Due to the eclectic nature of our list the parts exist across the chaos, orc and goblin and dwarf lines. Its been my contention since i joined the site, hasn’t changed.

Also if they were going to redo CDs at some point there is nothing to prevent them from doing a “Get you By” list in White Dwarf". Its been done many times before WD became the glorified catalog that it is now.

They have said time and again that no new army unless there are Core plastics to go along with the army book. Each release they are getting closer to it. I can understand their reasoning even if I dont like their methods. Of course it could just be the PR face they put forward.

Looking at what is left thou gives us a good shot if they are inclined to do so. Its simply 2010 or 2011 based on the current release cycle and if Grims’ inside sources are to be believed.

And yes, you ar epreaching to the choir! :wink:

5

Thommy H:

Willmark: even though the “parts” may exist (by which I assume you mean the various elements of plastic kits required to convert a Chaos Dwarf model), actually putting them on one sprue, and even just putting them in one box (which would need its own artwork and so on…) would be a large investment of time and money.

The issue, now and always, is that resurrecting Chaos Dwarfs is not “free”. It would cost GW money to do it, and that’s not money they think they can necessarily make back - especially when this hypothetical release wouldn’t even be a “real” one, so players not already invested in Chaos Dwarfs would be unlikely to pick up these half-assed releases.

Frankly, if I was a GW higher-up, I wouldn’t want to throw out some token release to please a minority of fans even if it did make money. That’s hardly their style. Again, there are people here who don’t like the way things are done by GW, but you can’t accuse them of not being consistent or not making sense. There is a logic to their decisions, albeit one that doesn’t benefit Chaos Dwarf players and collectors.

In other words, you may not like it, but that doesn’t make it wrong.

6

snowblizz:



But to move onto your broader point.

1) Tournaments are not the be-all-and-end-all of "official", nor does GW head office preside over the tournament rules in the way that people seem to think they do. Tournament organisers - even the organisers of the official GW tournaments - set their own rules and limits. Do you think Phil Kelly or Matt Ward are coming up with the rules for a tournament happening on another continent? It sucks that you can't use your army, but that doesn't mean GW are missing a trick or something.

2) The Chaos Dwarf rules are no longer easy to find online. GW have taken them out of circulation for the perfectly valid reason that they're outdated and the models are no longer sold by GW. They've said before that they don't want to provide rules for things that people can't buy - it goes against their business model. Since GW don't host the rules, that means that tournament players can't find these rules and prepare for the possibility of facing them. It's not fair on the other players to throw them against an army they may never even have heard of and which, at the very least, they are unlikely to have rules for.

Now, I get that you're unhappy, but this is not GW screwing you. It's not unfair, it's just unfortunate.


Thommy H
While I agree wit what you say as it is reasonable...
1) I'd like to add: play in Indy GTs! I think most Indys in the US allow CDs, and if you ask I'm sure they will.
2) I disagree, mainly because this could just as easily apply to any army. I don't know how OK/TK/others works and am thus completely unable to "prepare" to meet them. I don't know any players who use them etc etc. Obviously it is possible to *buy* the armybooks and read up on them but in the same vein a serious tournament player can if they so choose get hold of the CD rules. It is easier and cheaper compared to reading up on the others after all. I understand the technicality of all other books begin "official" and in print but that doesn't change the fact that "tournament players can't read up on CD rules" is a very weak and frankly silly argument to ban CDs.
The big irony here is that the GIANT! rules were quite often available in GTs and they were just as hard to find. It seems they have finally take the DoW giant away in the site renewal but for time it was the *only* DoW you could take with several armies. Hypocritical to say the least.
7

Thommy H:

Obviously it is possible to *buy* the armybooks and read up on them but in the same vein a serious tournament player can if they so choose get hold of the CD rules
From where?

First, they'd have to even know that such an army exists (how? The GW website doesn't mention them...), then they'd have to realise that they had an army list online somewhere (and that it was written by GW and not some fan creation) and find it with a google search, which would probably direct them here. Then they'd have to find the right link to the GW Oz site and download it.

GW sells a complete hobby experience. It's unreasonable for them to expect their customers to go to these lengths to get hold of what is supposedly an "official" army you can use in their sanctioned tournaments.

Official tournaments will not feature Chaos Dwarfs unless GW supports them. GW will not support Chaos Dwarfs without models. They will not release models unless there is a market. This is the train of logic and, frankly, it's pretty airtight. You need to start at the bottom if you want to affect a change: show them a market exists. Don't go complaining to tournament organisers, or claiming they can just miss out the models part. Taking a Chaos Dwarf army to a tournament but using different rules (Dwarfs, Chaos Warriors, even Orcs and Goblins) is a smart thing to do. It gets the models noticed and shows GW that people will go to extreme lengths to get an army of these figures on the table. Baggronor has the right idea, because he has a great Chaos Dwarf army that can be used with Dwarf rules and, since it looks so awesome, it's likely to get photographed at these events and show up in something official. He's not kicking up a fuss that he can't use the "real" rules for his army, he's just demonstrating that there's money in figures like this.

If you insist on being part of a crusade, just increasing Chaos Dwarf visibility and making this site and its endeavours as cool as possible is a thousand times better than just complaining and accusing GW of enacting some kind of illogical conspiracy.
8

Willmark:

Thommy I’m well aware of that as well your points. My position hasn’t changed, just my understanding of the matter at hand has. I’m also aware of what GW is trying to accomplish.

9

CheTralfara:

I have no idea what illogical conspiracy you are referring to, as I claimed nothing of the sort. I merely said they are (not purposely) excluding a portion of their customers who have invested their time and money into an officially supported army (up until 2008). The rules are still featured on the Australian GW site (chaos dwarfs are listed right there on the list of main armies!) and the stats are right there in the 7th edition rulebook (which EVERYONE has). So the arguement that the rules are so hard to find, is not the case at all. Also our lack of special rules and use of greenskins means that the stats in the back of the rulebook pretty much sum up the whole army. There is no huge advantage to fielding a chaos dwarf army without the other player seeing our rulebook. Our list is as simple and plain as an army list can get.

The dwarf army is ridiculous different from Chaos Dwarfs. No greenskins, no magic, and no bull centaurs. Playing the counts-as Dwarfs book list, is playing a GOOD dwarf army, plain and simple. There are very little similarities beyond the core warriors. Not to mention, now that over half your army has been excluded from the tournament, you would have to model a whole nother 1,000 plus points. That’s kind of shitty to do to your customers who have paid so much money on their dwarf and greenskin models.

As for there being no model range (as you said in your first spot), that is completely untrue. The entire army exists within the GW range, and simply provides a new fun challenge and experience for the hobbyist AND requires you to buy MULTIPLE boxes to make 1 troop type, therefore SELLING MORE for GW.

A LOT of money could be made from a small Tournament Legal 2-page update to the Chaos Dwarf list. The amount of new Chaos Dwarf players it would attract would sell enough boxes of Dwarf Warriors, Thunderers, Goblin Wolfriders, and Marauders, that I guarantee they would easily make their money back.

White Dwarf has the time to make entire campaign systems and rules for Raids, and Boats!!! Those sell NOTHING compared to what a Chaos Dwarf get-you-by list would sell. You’re telling me that Boat rules make them any kind of money? GW doesn’t even sell boats, but they dedicated almost half a White Dwarf to new boat rules for Sea Monsters (which also have NO models), Boats, and sea-faring scenarios.

Simple Point, once again: GW has EVERYTHING to gain from making a tournament legal White Dwarf get-you-by update of the Chaos Dwarf army. An official army, listed in the back of the rulebook, with ALL models already in production (just requiring assembly and and a little bit of GS.)

.nick

10

Thommy H:

Again, you’re assuming that doing all these things costs nothing. Even putting a bunch of old models in a new box requires an investment - and, if that’s money they don’t know they’ll make back, they won’t do it. And this is ignoring the fact that providing rules for an army without full model support goes totally against GW’s current business model.

11

Onii One Orc:

People are also inherently lazy, and, sorry to disappoint you, but I don’t think that new rules are going to make people out and convert an entire army of CD, even if all the parts are available from the GW range already. I have to say, it takes dedication and a love of converting to play chaos dwarfs, and most people simply aren’t that hardcore. And while the Chaos Dwarfs Online community is that hardcore, we only represent a very, very small minority of all the Warhammer players out there.

12

X-Porter:

Che, you are justified in your rant, and I will speak for myself only when I say I feel the same dissatisfaction (although I think many others feel it as well).

I have been following WHFB and 40K for about 20 years, and have been more and more disappointed as time has progressed. Having played Imperial Guard since their introduction in WD 109 and having had to retool every year or so was bad enough. What happened to CD’s was worse.

My only advice to you would be to turn your attention from GW-run gaming to local, independent tournaments/campaigns. GW is not interested in the hobby. They are not interested in “theme” players like ourselves. They are interested in making money in the short term.

Local clubs are more likely to be flexible in order to create a more enjoyable atmosphere.

Find a good local club and enjoy the hobby for what it should be.

Your enjoyment of the game shouldn’t be dictated by accountants.

13

CheTralfara:

I have to say, I disagree completely with Onii. The majority of armies I have seen online and tournament displays are heavily converted and full of character. Converting is a HUGE part of the hobby and GW recognized this to the point of offering an entire bitz service until it became too costly. The WD magazine dedicates large sections to converting and adding character to your army. Now that the bitz market is gone, many people will buy a whole box of models just for a few bitz (I have done this MANY times over). In this way, converting provides a large market for GW, and the Chaos Dwarf army list, sometimes requiring several boxes to create 1 regiment, is something that could generate a lot of sales, with no new production costs.

Tommy, nobody is talking about putting existing sprues in a new box or package marked “Chaos Dwarfs”. We are simply talking about an article that makes the reccomended choices for converting chaos dwarfs from the EXISTING line of models (just like I had done in the original thread).

One simple White Dwarf 2-page playtested and tournament legal Chaos Dwarf army list, would excite the hell out of the LARGE portion of the GW hobby community that enjoys converting, and would want an army that no one else has. This 1 article doesn’t even require much work, since the basic list already exists (it only needs a spell lore, and some broken fixes… the lord’s toughness, the fast cavalry hobbos with sheilds… heroes leading lords… sneaky gitz lapping). That one article would generate more sales of existing boxes (not too mention could generate HUGE BFSP SALES!) than any 1 white dwarf article ever could.

I said my piece. It’s time to make this arguement to the White Dwarf himself.

p.s. They could even use the CDO galleries of conversions to show off the many different ways to make Chaos Dwarf things such as Hobbos (Xander’s NightGobbo GreenStuff extension, Flagellant bodies/NightGobbo heads, Plaguemonk bodies/Gobbo heads)…

14

Thommy H:

This 1 article doesn't even require much work
I think you'd be very surprised by just how much work it would take and, again, you talk like it's free - the designers can't just fill White Dwarf with whatever takes their fancy: they have to put stuff in there which will shift models. Two pages of Chaos Dwarfs (which may well make no money whatsoever) are two pages that aren't being used to sell Space Marines (which will make money, virtually guaranteed).

You see the issue? A box of Chaos Dwarfs on a truck is one box less of Space Marines. Resources spent to promote Chaos Dwarfs are resources that could be used to sell Space Marines. It costs money to do anything, and that's money that GW might not make back on such a niche product. They promote what they know will sell.

But, they might make money with Chaos Dwarfs one day. Why do you think they're being filtered back into the background? Chaos Dwarfs weren't mentioned all over the Warriors of Chaos book to pander to us: it was so people who'd never heard of them would go "hey, what are these guys all about? I bet an army of them might be cool..." It's a long-term project to see if interest can be generated in Chaos Dwarfs. If it works, if people respond well, then there's hope. This is what the Hellcannon was all about too - introduce a new look and some new background and see if people pick up on it. And, hey look: they did! The Hellcannon begat this current boom in Chaos Dwarf fandom, of which this site is the most visible result.

GW is not screwing you. They're not missing a trick. They're actually going above and beyond what they have any reason to be doing, since Chaos Dwarfs are a proven failure. You shouldn't expect them to support a failed line of miniatures, but that they're doing their best to generate interest in this army despite it not making financial sense is kind of amazing.

Glass half full, kids.
15

cornixt:

I’m surprised they haven’t done the next biggest step, which is to put out a get-you-by CD list in WD. They did one for WoC and they didn’t even need one (and the one they got was awful too). I’m betting that most WD publication meetings aren’t so much “How can we use this to sell more models” but “What can we do to fill the space” like most magazines.

Converting-wise, who says people will convert? A box of dwarfs painted dark and a box of goblins will satisfy 95% of non-converting gamers. I’d say the biggest GW fear is that new CD fans would just buy BFSP and cost GW money rather than spending their cash on high profit margin products.

I blame marketing, they are the source of the most useless nonsense and directives that any company gets. It only takes one clueless newbie in the marketing department to screw up the work of hundreds of people. When most of them are clueless…

16

Maul:

I am just going to make a few points and then duck away because this conversation is getting a bit heated.

1. Chaos Dwarves have largely been obliterated on GW website, but they are still on the last page of the present rule book. (there stat lines are there)

2. I think people would convert the models. I just started converting less then 6 months ago and I nearly up to 2000 points of converted troops (admittedly I could have chosen some easier paths)

3. I would have never looked at the army until someone forced me to take a look at the army and seek out the rules (Podhammer #5)

4. This is a friendly forum. So let us take a breath. We are all in this together, although admittedly some folks face more stringent tournament environments. I do believe that it is a good idea to take the army and play it as some other warband as Mr. Cinderhat has done. His army did get a lot of attention as a regular dwarf warband. I fully plan on having to at some point make my CD use the good guys rules. You could play them as Orcs & goblins and have hobgoblins=goblins, orc=orcs, CD=black orcs with bull centaurs=boar boys, and tenderizers=orc chariots. Show people the models and make them talk about the possibility.

17

Thommy H:

I'd say the biggest GW fear is that new CD fans would just buy BFSP and cost GW money rather than spending their cash on high profit margin products.
I disagree, but I do think that's a perfectly valid concern. Why should GW promote something that might not sell that well, or might end up losing them money in the long term?

The bottom line is that Games Workshop don't owe Chaos Dwarf players anything. We didn't buy the models when they were available and given equal billing with every other army, after all. There's no evidence that they'd sell now - just dropping a list into White Dwarf at random wouldn't be worthwhile, it would be completely and totally out of left field and would leave most of their customers wondering what the hell was going on.

"Who are these Chaos Dwarfs?" they'd wonder because, as far as most Warhammer players are concerned, this is an army from two editions ago that just appeared from nowhere. That's why they're being fed back into the background gradually: to hype them. It's like a teaser trailer for a big movie. You see hints of the Enterprise or the Joker's facepaint and it makes you go, "hey, here's something I should be interested in!"

New players are what will make Chaos Dwarfs worthwhile for GW, not us veterans who don't even need GW to support their hobby.
18

snowblizz:

I'd say the biggest GW fear is that new CD fans would just buy BFSP and cost GW money rather than spending their cash on high profit margin products.
I disagree, but I do think that's a perfectly valid concern. Why should GW promote something that might not sell that well, or might end up losing them money in the long term?

Thommy H
I think the term used normally is risk, a pre-requisite of profit. You take the chance and make an investment you think will work out. Not even new Space Marines are a sure thing. Close to, but still not a sure thing.

The bottom line is that Games Workshop don't owe Chaos Dwarf players anything. We didn't buy the models when they were available and given equal billing with every other army, after all. There's no evidence that they'd sell now - just dropping a list into White Dwarf at random wouldn't be worthwhile, it would be completely and totally out of left field and would leave most of their customers wondering what the hell was going on.

Thommy H
Of course they don't own anybody anything. Because utterly screwing your customers is such a great business idea? You might not think they owe players anything, they probably don't feel it either. But if the players do feel that way then *that's* what matters because they have what we want and we have what they need.
This is probably not the thread for it but I'm continually surprised at my and other's willingness to take crap from GW. I don't know exactly what the breaking point is, I just know there is one.

"Who are these Chaos Dwarfs?" they'd wonder because, as far as most Warhammer players are concerned, this is an army from two editions ago that just appeared from nowhere. That's why they're being fed back into the background gradually: to hype them. It's like a teaser trailer for a big movie. You see hints of the Enterprise or the Joker's facepaint and it makes you go, "hey, here's something I should be interested in!"

New players are what will make Chaos Dwarfs worthwhile for GW, not us veterans who don't even need GW to support their hobby.


Thommy H
You mean like Ogre Kingdoms? That rewrote Ogre background entirely (not that there really was any). I think the Wood Elf players were the ones who were the most surprised(and upset) to find a new army popping out of nowhere before the got their rewrite.

I like how you are at the same time saying nobody knows what CDs are and also blaming all gamers for not buying miniatures when they were available. Both can't be true at the same time.
I'd just like to point out that I for one never had the opportunity to buy Chaos Dwarf miniatures.
You don't think a White Dwarf article would be a great teaser then?
And if it then included a short RH updater would be a great service to some customers. But I bet you don't believe in providing great service for customers. You don't happen to work in an I(C)T/IS department by any chance?
19

Thommy H:

Both can't be true at the same time.
Yes they can: no one bought them, and that's why no one knows what they are now. It's not a contradiction in terms.

I'm not "blaming" anyone, and I don't take "crap" from GW. God, why do I have to pick a side in this crusade that some people on this forum seem to be on? Maybe I just believe in logical answers to things, and don't bear any ill will to a company that makes things I like.
20

cornixt:

I'd say the biggest GW fear is that new CD fans would just buy BFSP and cost GW money rather than spending their cash on high profit margin products.
I disagree, but I do think that's a perfectly valid concern. Why should GW promote something that might not sell that well, or might end up losing them money in the long term?

Thommy H
I'm not sure how the latter sentence connects. In my scenarios CDs won't sell well because there aren't any CD miniatures. It MAY increase the sales of Dwarf and greenskins models though. Very little investment beyond a few pages in WD. People won't be confused if they added a page or two of basic fluff. They have done significantly more unusual stuff in the recent past, from the Zombie Pirates to the Amaxons.

My biggest worry with anything like this is that it almost instantly pushes our army into the opponents permission slot, plus it won't be very well playtested. But the point is, if this sort of article gets people excited about the army then GW would put more consideration into make a full CD army, just like they have with armies in the past.

I wonder if GW would do this kind of thing without consulting us, suddenly springing it without notice, or if at least the staff of this site would have a heads-up ahead of time.