Swissdictator:
So far I feel like Matt Ward is a total nut. Wasn’t he the one who said “Of course Daemons are overpowered, they’re supposed to be!” or something like that???
Plus if he is hating the Orcs and Goblins, a race I always found amusing, he does not gain my trust.
As for Alessio… I actually like the underground stuff. I found it very interesting, to be honest. Especially for Tomb Kings (the whole being under the sands). I do remember when 6th edition Skaven were strong, as I started playing in 2005. However, I loved his 6E VC book… I thought it was very nicely done. Before the new VC book came out, I felt it really only needed a few tweaks and it’d be perfect.
I should apply to GW… who knows… maybe it’d work…
Thorne:
Of course orcs and goblins are ammusing, Most orc and goblin players are nuts, I had much more fun wasting my own army of ocs than I ever did someoen else picking on them. Swiss give it a go ! what you got to lose 
Swissdictator:
I played Orcs and Goblins for a while actually. I probably have enough to do them still… I’d just use the Hobgoblins as Regular Goblins most likely. They can be crazy fun, though the army I’d want to run might not be the most effective. It’d be very heavily infantry based, with light cav supporting all over. Maybe a chariot or two running around for a laugh.
Willmark:
He did some pretty good work in my opinion over his time at GW.
True, although he did some pretty bad work too. 6th ed Skaven for example...
Baggronor
*disagrees*... ;P
Despite the 'Warhammer Armies: clan Skryre' armybook he effectively wrote having had a lot of people being put off by the Skaven, I rate it as FAR better then the 7th edition abomination Jeremy "8 page errata" Vetock came up with. Aside from the discussion whether the new approach to Skaven is fluff-wise correct or not, an 8 page errata for an armybook is something that should NEVER occur... Then again, after the 7th edition armybook was released, I started playing Warhammer QUITE a bit less, so I'm having mixed feelings over his departure.
Greetz
Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
Can't be any worse then Jake Thornton's abomination that was the 6th Edition Warhammer Armies: High Elves: a book so bland it made vanilla taste like a 7 course meal in comparison.
snowblizz:
Can't be any worse then Jake Thornton's abomination that was the 6th Edition Warhammer Armies: High Elves: a book so bland it made vanilla taste like a 7 course meal in comparison.
Willmark
*shudders*
I've had that guy on my deathlist for the longest time...
He may have been an good WD editor but he wasn't a game designer.
There was a reason the 5th ed HE had so many special rules.
Intrigue at Court may have been one of the most stupid rules ever invented. And then they have the cheek to try and tell us how to imagine stuff... grrr...
Swissdictator:
I never played as High Elves, but I do remember the High Elves being pretty boring. Plus the whole Intrigue at Court nonsense… ugh…
Still wish they had never made the D6 CR banner… that thing is wrong…
Though I have to agree, if one didn’t spam Skryre in the 6E Skaven book they were very reasonable I thought. I do agree with cheaper spears/shields though. Plus as Willmark said, it didn’t need a lot of errata right away.
Thorne:
I've had that guy on my deathlist for the longest time...
He may have been an good WD editor but he wasn't a game designer.
snowblizz
Good WD editor dont get me started Paul ''Fat bloke'' Sawyer was the best white dwarf editor That I can recall, That said At least he put ravening hordes together so we have something to be semi thankfull for.
snowblizz:
I've had that guy on my deathlist for the longest time...
He may have been an good WD editor but he wasn't a game designer.
snowblizz
Good WD editor dont get me started Paul ''Fat bloke'' Sawyer was the best white dwarf editor That I can recall, That said At least he put ravening hordes together so we have something to be semi thankfull for.
Thorne
The one doesn't preclude the other.
Thorton may have been "good", he was before Sawyer and the magazine was still good back then.
Sawyer however was awesome. No doubt about it.
Those after Sawyer... though I'm willing to admit it's not their fault entirely the company refocusing their magazine and other content is not the editors decision.
Servius:
I find it sad that pretty much the people who made the game something i enjoyed… Chambers, Thorpe, Cavatore, Sawyer, Dirty Steve, etc are now gone. Replaced by Corporate “Yes” men who (IMO) don’t have much invested in the game themselves. I mean for all Cavatore’s supposed faults in game dev… this is one fact that holds true… GW was a company formed by gamers for gamers. and over time that simple axiom fell false and it became More a company formed by gamers that decided that making the mighty dollar was more important to them than the game they made. I mean Come on… Take the GW Mission statement or how Redshirts are trained to force and pressure sell just like Lemon Car Dealers and show it to Jervis back in the early days of the mid 80’s and he would tell you GW would never be like that… But he is Yes man number one… I guess losing your hair makes you a spineless pushover to those banker corporate types.
LumpinCroop:
I think Servius has described the change in GW very well, from a game company run by gamers to a corporate monstrosity not that dissimilar now from Wizards of the Coast or Hasbro.
slev:
or how Redshirts are trained to force and pressure sell just like Lemon Car Dealers
Servius
Err, hate to break it to you, they're not, or at least, not by company policy.
FWIW, the new editor of WD is someone I used to write with back when we where both at uni. Any problems now I can vouch as not being with the editor, but the management.
Baggronor:
GW was a company formed by gamers for gamers. and over time that simple axiom fell false and it became More a company formed by gamers that decided that making the mighty dollar was more important to them than the game they made. I mean Come on.. Take the GW Mission statement or how Redshirts are trained to force and pressure sell just like Lemon Car Dealers and show it to Jervis back in the early days of the mid 80's and he would tell you GW would never be like that... But he is Yes man number one.. I guess losing your hair makes you a spineless pushover to those banker corporate types.
Its inevitable when there are shareholders to pander to. Not to mention rent for stores, wages, all those things that small companies don't have to worry about. Its easy to forget they have done a tremendous amount of good for the hobby too though.
Sawyer however was awesome. No doubt about it.
The Fat Bloke days were the golden era of WD imo. I actually bought it every month... these days I flick through it once every 3 months just to check whether its still crap. All ads and targeted sales, nothing to interest the real gamers or hobbyists.
Plus the whole Intrigue at Court nonsense... ugh..
Stupidest rule ever. 'We're so ancient and wise that we'll be blase about war to the extent of having some random dude lead our army instead of the guy with 3000 years of experience.' No wonder they're a dying race.
Servius:
or how Redshirts are trained to force and pressure sell just like Lemon Car Dealers
Servius
Err, hate to break it to you, they're not, or at least, not by company policy.
FWIW, the new editor of WD is someone I used to write with back when we where both at uni. Any problems now I can vouch as not being with the editor, but the management.
slev
Hate to break it to you.. I was a redshirt at the GW Shop in Eastridge Mall in East San Jose... You had sales quotes every month to meet and in the SOP and Employee manual it has specific strategies to follow when dealing with different types of customers to get sales. I have worked in retail for a number of years and can say this is the ONLY time I could open my employee manual and it would have a step by step of how to sell product to an 10-14 year old boy. Maybe in the UK its a bit different being the mother country and all.. but in the US. its a different story.
As far as the comment from Bagg.. Oh, I completely understand the fact that they have shareholders to pander to as well as making profit to produce the game.. but My point was to say that if you read some of Jervis Johnson's older articles and such you can see that GW was formed on the basis of being "By Gamers for Gamers" now its more like "Former Gamers for Money" Its a trend I see in GW far an wide. both in Brand Stores and Indy shops. If your not the one lining their pockets they could careless about you.
Look at the Druchii.net debate.... The people spoke out. GW said hey that's sensible. So they updated their book. These days if you take the time to do something similar they ignore you.
As far as making the industry better.. I would agree.. they have made the industry more diverse. But does that change the opinion that I think they need to look back at when they started and take a thought of how they evolved their company? Nope.
I love the game personally and wont stop playing anytime soon..
Getting back on topic...
I really thing GW in their evolution has in some ways press-ganged the people i mentioned out.. and if they wouldn't leave they let them go. If you really think about it the people that have left over the years which were big names were all about keeping in touch with the roots and were gamers over corporate suits. once GW started to lose sight of this it started to weigh in I think
Baggronor:
I have worked in retail for a number of years and can say this is the ONLY time I could open my employee manual and it would have a step by step of how to sell product to an 10-14 year old boy. Maybe in the UK its a bit different being the mother country and all.. but in the US. its a different story.
Seriously?! :o Jesus. I know a lot of UK staff and I've never heard of anything that specific in manuals over here. Sinister...
I actually couldn't name a GW games designer off the top of my head these days now that Alessio has left. None of the current ones seem to have the personality of the old guys. Makes me sad :(
cornixt:
My brother in law used to be a manager of a GW store. He quit after being endlessly hassled about meeting quotas for his shoebox-sized store. There were specific courses about how to sell to certain people, but he didn’t mention a manual.
He has a used-car-salesman personality (it’s hard to find anyone in my family who actually likes him but he is tolerable), so I have no doubt he could have met the quotas if he wanted to, but that would have meant hassling everyone who walked into the store.
Thorne:
Sad really as I can recall most of the old school games developers from the top of my head, With Alessio gone I can recall none.
Firehammer:
Its inevitable when there are shareholders to pander to.
Baggronor
Well, it is not that simple. GW management is artificially reducing sales, customer numbers and profits by bad management and a weird form of anti-marketing, ignoring basic principles of how a business should be run.
The major shareholders are tolerating this shrinking profits for years without making the management responsible for its failures. AFAIK the majority of shares are in the hands of people who would not sell them under any circumstances, so the management can do what they want. The CEO is from the shampoo business IIRC.
Servius:
i have a large amount of shares in the company… enough to warrant flying to the UK for the Stockholder’s meetings (mostly from my old 401k) but I will say that I receive alot of information on the business monthly… and they are by no means artificially reducing sales… in the contrary. Sales are not down at all they have been hovering around the same area for nearly a year. I will agree on the Anti-marketing and running the business like they are a bunch of monkeys with sledgehammers.
The CEO was a Senior VP at Johnson and Johnson or something like that before GW “IIRC”.
As far as the manual this was in the early 00’s but yes it was more a pamphlet and basically it was organized by age, gender, and situations. It basically gave examples of how to sale to the prespective buyer which in all honesty isnt unusual… but when the pamphlet has things like “offer to assist in building or painting the models. after EVERY sale” and GW stores have a standing policy to not offer refunds on open or used products. I remember my Blackshirt making dead sure that EVERY employee knew the Return policy verbatim. He actually pressed that more than knowing the product. It could be isolated but I have the pamphlet somewhere around and im dead sure it was from Glen Burnie.
slev:
I am willing to believe that things could be different in the US, purely because GW’s initial foray into the US was so disastrous. They basically did the same thing they did here, but it didn’t work due to differences in US culture.
UK managers are expected to hit certain targets, but this has generally tended to be done by means other than pressure-selling in their staff, known as “building the hobby”. The idea being to encourage active participation and the sales will follow.
The normal UK staff (black/red-shirts) are given targets, but this tends to be along the lines of intro games played and people signed-up for a game, et al.
Firehammer:
.. and they are by no means artificially reducing sales.. in the contrary. Sales are not down at all they have been hovering around the same area for nearly a year. I will agree on the Anti-marketing and running the business like they are a bunch of monkeys with sledgehammers.
Servius
Sales go down for years, customer numbers decrease. Any decent company would have started advertising and made a campaign to get new customers instead of just waiting in their own little shops.
They would have repeated the success with the first Space Hulk/Space Crusade that drew thousands into the hobby because it was advertised and sold in normal toy stores. A classic and successful introductory game. But they treated this super-product like a secret even on the German Games Day just before release, for Christ's sake! And they made it a limited release! Including all parts! Whith the next two releases being Tyranids and Blood Angels and people hunting for these miniatures! This is obvious sabotage of sales and profits and someone should have been fired!
There are other examples, but this is the most drastic. I won't start on the negative effects of current rumour control, beating any interest in the products to the ground and annoying the customers.
