Tarrakk Blackhand:
@ Thommy H - I can agree with your cold war statement, but remember that it’s only CDO that’s really putting forth the effort to keep Chaos Dwarfs alive. From GW perspective, we’re sunk.
Thommy H:
Is there only four chaos gods that govern the realm of chaos, I mean are we in the mind set that the four brother control all of that realm? The four have greatly different styles. IMO- if i were to write the fluff there would be tons of gods with a great war that allowed the four brothers to take hold of the realm of chaos. Hashut would be one of the many defeated god.It doesn't really work this way.
The Realm of Chaos (called the Warp in 40K) is a shifting alternate reality of energy rather than matter. It reflects and is in some measure composed of the thoughts and emotions of mortal creatures. Entities live within it - some of which are naturally occurring and independent - and others of which are spawned by strong emotions in the physical world: literally, thought given form. It is to this category that Chaos Gods and Daemons belong. The most powerful emotions have created the most powerful gods: these emotions are anger, lust, hope and despair. Because of the dominance of these four emotions over mortal affairs, almost all warp entities are in some way subservient to the four most powerful gods of Chaos - for example, the Elven god of murder (Khaine) is, in some way, an aspect of Khorne, and emotions that feed him will also feed Khorne (since murder requires hatred and anger), even though he is also an independent creature with his own personality and identity. In many ways, a Daemon Prince or a Greater Daemon is therefore just a lesser Chaos God and, since the Realm of Chaos is infinite, there are infinite entities of every possible power level, all being fed by the seething thoughts and feelings of the mortal world. Hashut is undoubtedly one of these, but where he would fit on the sliding scale, and how he originated are not clear.
BilboBaggins:
Technically all Gods should be considered Chaos. It’s just the Big 4 (and a few others) are considered the Ruinous powers. Depends on the armies (person’s) viewpoint.
You really think Khaigne (God of Murder) is not Chaos.
I think of Hashut not as evil deity (but that is from a CD viewpoint) but to the Dwarfs/Empire they are evil.
Thommy H:
You really think Khaigne (God of Murder) is not Chaos.Who? Me?
BilboBaggins:
You really think Khaigne (God of Murder) is not Chaos.
Who? Me?Not you but the ones in GW who while making all the armies darker still try to have good and evil.
Thommy H
Thommy H:
What? So the guys in GW think Khaine isn’t a Chaos god? I’m not following…
BilboBaggins:
Some only believe in the big 4 being Chaos. They don’t even think the Horned Rat is Chaos.
I think I may have mistyped Khaine (in the High Elf Book) he is basically the same and the Dark Elf God who in turn is also similar to Khorne in ideology.
Grimstonefire:
That is an interesting point Arakagaan about them wanting dominion…
We all know it is pointless trying to be a Master of chaos. It is just so highly impractical that it is virtually impossible. I think in 40k it would be impossible as the warp is spread over so vast an area. But hypothetically if the CD could find a way to banish or bind daemons on a vast scale, and they employed barbarian armies to defend and conquer (and played the ones who didn’t play ball against each other), they might think it could be possible to dominate over chaos. Not 100% of course, but enough that they would be a major power.
A bit like Saruman and Sauron. Saruman knew he could not dominate the whole known world by himself, and certainly not conquer over Sauron. But he was very confident that he could enslave and conquer all who stood before him until Sauron was powerful enough to rule. So not dominating over sauron (chaos gods), but content to use his power and influence over the power of chaos (uruk hai) to dominate all he could. And Saruman was only 1 man, imagine a whole empire of like minded people.
So this is in effect using chaos as a weapon to rule, until chaos itself conquers everything. This concept is actually a strong part of my own fluff.
Skitter:
The way I see it CD worship a chaos god, although a minor one. We are just a bit more aligned to chaos than Dark Elves, a bit but not much. We are a pretty independent bunch, secure in our great city. We trade with the barbarians not for their manufactured goods, we make far better stuff ourself, but for a few raw materials(not much considering the riches of the Plain of Zharr) and above all else; slaves. That is the one comodety they can supply us that we are in great demand of. If a caravan tries to offer us silk from Cathay, I would rather enslave the caravan, as that is where the value is in a CD’s mind. THough doing so might be bad for buisiness in the long run…
Arakagaan Calasson:
Yea ruling the world is so highly impractical that for our little friends it is virtually impossible indeed.
The question is… do they know that?
Skitter:
Well… read the introduction to chaos dwarfs in the ravening hordes booklet.
"Far to the east in the ash-strewn lands of the chaos dwarfs lie the towers of Zharr Naggrund. In these blackened spires the chaos dwarfs plot their overthrow of the west and their eventual dominion of the world."
The Chaos Dwarfs certainly have ambitions far beyond Zharr Naggrund in the long run I would say. That is why I have launched an expedition to resettle Karak Vlag :hat
When it comes to mastering chaos, the dark elves have tried that, it more or less ended in the Sundering. There was a great story about how that happened from a dark elf’s point of view in the old 6th ed Dark Elves army book.
Thommy H:
Some only believe in the big 4 being Chaos. They don't even think the Horned Rat is Chaos.Do you mean guys who work for GW though? I'm not debating that there are players who make mistakes with the background (just read this thread...) but you seem to be implying that the people writing the books have it wrong too. Which would seem a little...weird...since it's their universe.
I think I may have mistyped Khaine (in the High Elf Book) he is basically the same and the Dark Elf God who in turn is also similar to Khorne in ideology.
BilboBaggins
Arakagaan Calasson:
My CDs are basically taking and capturing small human townships in the Southern seas and making a small littorally based state, trading with human tribesmen, men from Ind, Lahmians, and O&G
TwilightCo:
Ok,
Chaos, the Primordial Annihilator, does not break stuff. It causes strife, decay and ultimately change. The empyrean mirrors back malicious emotional energies and reflects them back into the material world. All effects are not brutal and dramatic, this is displayed in the form of the cults that infest most of the civilizations on the WH world. (As touched upon by Thommy, Bilbo and others, it could be all the races but that�?Ts not quite the point).
Because the CDs cannot be thematically tied to any one of the great four chaos powers they tend to come off as �?oless of a chaos army�?� when compared to other __�?�Chaos�?� armies. To me, this is typical of the armies of Chaos Undivided. As the case has been in previous editions of WH/40k, the strength of Chaos Undivided armies is their diversity. That is/was commonly displayed by excellent options in army composition, versatility in tactics and an overall better ability to take on a diverse array of adversaries. The CD army list has all of the above. You can go all shooty, fast attack, etc.
All in all, I find the CDs to be unequivocally Chaos (much Like Elric�?Ts Melniboné) to the core. They are daemon worshiping slavers that have forsaken all redeeming characteristics of the dwarfin race and embraced those traits most common to Chaos to achieve engineering heights powered by sorcery rather than noble labors.
Arakagaan Calasson:
the Primordial Annihilator, does not break stuff
Contradiction in terms?
Drychnath:
I would keep the Chaos Dwarfs as they are - Chaos aligned. Insofar as how they fit into the grand scheme of things, they would seem to have occupied a position on ‘team evil’ analogous to that of the Wood Elves on 'team good.'
On team good we have three primary civilizations of Dwarfs, Elves, and Empire, with the addition of Breton and Lizardmen as major supporting powers (in terms of perspective).
On team evil we have three primary armies in Chaos (yes, I know they are many books now. Alignment is still unchanged, however), O&G, and Undead, with supporting powers (again, by perspective only) in terms of Skaven and Dark Elves.
The pretty thoroughly neutral powers consist of Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms - though good argument can be made that Tomb Kings slightly favor good by virtue of their hatred for Vampire Counts and Nagash, and Ogre Kingdoms slightly favor evil by virtue of…well…temperament.
We all know that the story of Warhammer is largely centered on the Empire and their close allies, Dwarfs and Elves. The ‘plot’ is driven by the incursions of bad guys into these realms, for one reason or another. The only ways for the story to go forward are for someone to be an omni-present threat (like O&G, Vampires, and Chaos), or, if sidelined by reason of geography or modus operandi, have global ambitions (like Skaven or Dark Elves).
Wood Elves fall loosely onto team good. The only real reason for this is the large-scale one. Ambitious Bretons and greedy Dwarfs are far lesser a threat to the survival of Athel Loren than the world being turned into a vast graveyard (too much necromancy is bad for the warm and fuzzies), a ravaged wasteland (Orcs sure are bad at coexistence with animals. Or Elves. Or shrubs), or an inconceivable hell-scape (something about all that mutation Daemons bring with them seems against the natural order of things - maybe it’s in their. . . nature?).
I see Chaos Dwarfs occupying a similar position to Wood Elves. They have several things in common:
1) Splinter faction from a primary race of good guys.
2) Geographically isolated (from major powers of opposite team, at any rate).
3) Small in number.
4) Adapted to their environment. The Elven story is fairly explicit on this point - the Chaos Dwarfs demonstrate it through their subtle mutation, institution of slavery to secure power base, and most tellingly, the use of magic and daemonic energies.
5) Don’t worship Primary powers - the Wood Elves have the secondary Elven hunter-god Kurnous, and the Chaos Dwarfs have the secondary Chaos god of darkness, Hashut.
Now, I haven’t read anything to indicate there is as much in the Chaos Dwarf background material about being militantly isolationist the way the Wood Elves are, but I argue that it’s the only practical position for the Chaos Dwarfs to take. Much of it is a numbers game: they have a capital city and only a few other outposts; the whole structural perception of them is that of a minority presiding over vast slave populations; they have Orcs and Goblins, Ogre bands, and Chaos worshiping humans for neighbors - not calculated to convince someone they can lessen their military readiness. This does not encourage far-flung campaigns of imperial adventure. That being said, these three neighbors are the providers of slaves and commerce to the Chaos Dwarfs, both necessary societal elements - and largely the same, given who we’re talking about. Furthermore, Chaos Dwarfs are philosophically closer in alignment to the bad guys, holding up domination and greed as the highest values. Their participation in broader team evil alliances can be seen often as a matter of mercenary enterprise, and even political necessity. I expect it occurred to all parties involved that Zhar Naggrund would be compelled to nothing before its destruction; and destroying it, even if possible, would have been so costly as to render the objectives of the campaign of Chaos unachievable. But slaves, plunder, and a crack at their cousins for the sake of some limited military support and selling them weapons? Everybody wins. Mutual self-interest is the strongest foundation.
Wood Elves are much more comfortable with the ‘live and let live’ attitude that prevails amongst the wiser heads in team good. This still leaves both Chaos Dwarfs and Wood Elves primarily in the ‘you don’t f$@! with me, I won’t f$@! with you’ category. Except when the plot dictates.
So, the long ramble was to say this: stay team evil. Don’t be apologist for following a non-primary power of Chaos.
Incidentally, for those advocating the idea of Hashut being transformed into a greed-focused deity: isn’t that what the Great Maw is, from the Ogre Kingdoms? As much food as possible. As much wealth as possible. Through any means available. It seems to me Hashut would do better sticking with the darkness and fire motif - lends itself to domination of industry better.
Lastly, on the subject of the Realm of Chaos: is it just me, or have they been making a really strong break with the ‘all Gods are creatures of Chaos in the end’ tradition with recent fluff? Namely I’m talking about the consolidation of the Realm of Chaos from an infinite riot of inconceivable variety in sensory input and dimension into the four quite specifically delineated zones and a small neutral spot in the middle. Between this and the ever-more-detailed stories we get of the Gods and Goddesses of the other races (looking at the story of the Sword of Khaine and the War of the Gods alluded to there), I’m suspecting a shift into a separate existence theory.
two_heads_talking:
Some only believe in the big 4 being Chaos. They don't even think the Horned Rat is Chaos.Khaine = Khorne, just a variant worshipped by the Elves, if you go further into the gods and mythos, even the High Elves worship a form of Khaine, they just control it more than the Dark Elves do. Even the WoodElves worship a God although it's more of a naturally Chaotic god too.
I think I may have mistyped Khaine (in the High Elf Book) he is basically the same and the Dark Elf God who in turn is also similar to Khorne in ideology.
BilboBaggins
Beastybeastbeats:
So the big question is who is Hashut?
BilboBaggins:
A god dug up by the Chaos Dwarfs. 
TwilightCo:
the Primordial Annihilator, does not break stuffWell, no... not really. There is a difference between breaking stuff and totally destroying it. Broken stuff can often be fixed. :mask It's a scale thing.
Contradiction in terms?
Arakagaan Calasson