Right, bear with me here.
Obviosly Chaos Dwarfs are evil. That is good. However, I am of the opinion that CDs should not be considered Chaos in the way Hordes or Daemons are. They have mutated due to chaos, yes, but I would like to see the CDs being far more neutral on all fronts. Why should the worshippers of Hashut forge weapons for the HoC? The hordes and the CDs really shouldn’t have much in common. One is a bunch of brawling barbarians, the other is a powerful realm of technologically gifted, culturally advanced evil Dwarfs. I’d like to see the CDs having more to do with the Undead or trading with Imperial regenades and Tileans, rather than this picture we have of an isolated nation whose only trade goes to barbarians (ogres, HoC, O&G) who I imagine the CDs would really look down on as culturally inferior.
Can you trade with the Undead?
I think you could look at this in terms of trade and religion. It may make sense in one. but not the other:
I agree with you in that they should not be followers of Chaos in the same way as WoC, BoC and DoC. These are all subservient to the will of the chaos gods (not just the big 4 at that).
How should CD differ? Well I think the answer to that depends on what you think Hashut is. If you see Hashut as one of the Chaos Gods then our fate is similar to the rest of those armies. If you think Hashut is more neutral and obscure in origin then there is a chance we could be chaos neutral from a religion point of view.
There could be a very good reason why the chaos dwarfs have to deal with chaos from a religion point of view.
Chaos Dwarfs are daemon binders, this cannot be disputed. The most willing trade partners will of course be chaos, so we do have something in common. There may have been a time when we could have gone down a different route, but the Hellcannon and Grudgebearer have sealed our fate as far as daemons are concerned. Incidently I don’t think we would confined ourselves to trading only with barbarians. Weapons and Armour are probably only some of the things we would trade. Artefacts, commodities and other special products we would probably trade with all kinds of races.
I’m sure the sorcerers would need some ancient book or something. A flashy suit of armour or uber sword of death is the latest fashion for vampire lords
I think geography is a big factor, too. Why don’t they trade with renegade Imperial factions, for example? Well, probably because there’s a stonking great mountain range in the way The only races that live adjacent to the Chaos Dwarfs are Ogres, Greenskins and Chaos Marauders. They’re not going to go selling Daemon swords to Lizardmen who live half a continent and an ocean away (if they’d even buy them in the first place) when they have perfectly good customers right on their doorstep.
It depends on what they have to trade. The barbarians won’t have silk and spices for instance. So an undaemonic set of fancy armour or steam engine may be traded with cathay for instance. We won’t always need what the barbarians have to trade, and it’s probably so shoddy it may not be of a high quality anyway.
Renegade empire humans could actually trade with CD in the comfort of the empire, speaking to merchants who travel back and forth. That’s not even to mention the CD that could be living in the empire. It’s a very big place, so there are plenty of places to hide…
One is a bunch of brawling barbarians, the other is a powerful realm of technologically gifted, culturally advanced evil Dwarfs
Just because you sell stuff to someone, doesn't mean you like them :) or even that you're giving them a fair price, certainly not if you have a monopoly on Chaos Armour :) Even western dwarfs are said to be aggressive hagglers after all.
And WoC are as different from BoC as CDs are from WoC, but both are Chaos armies (one is a bunch of brawling barbarians, one is a bunch of subhuman monsters).
And also, the trade routes of human merchants pass right through the Darklands, presumably with the CDs consent.
They obviously trade with the ogres (probably giving them a pretty poor deal :)) and thats all their neighbours. They are also mentioned in the WoC book as sending delegations far into the wastes to trade with the hordes. The delegation mentioned was actually murdered, showing things aren't necessarily friendly all of the time (presumably they tried to rip off the Chaos Lord too :)).
It depends on what they have to trade. The barbarians won't have silk and spices for instance. So an undaemonic set of fancy armour or steam engine may be traded with cathay for instance. We won't always need what the barbarians have to trade, and it's probably so shoddy it may not be of a high quality anyway.
I was under the impression all we got off the WoC were slaves for manpower. Although where do CD get food from? Nothing grows in the Darklands...
Can you trade with the Undead?
If you were an immortal lord of undeath, what would you want to buy from CDs? It just doesn't fit I think, all the Vampire/Lahmian artefacts are their own. They may also be sorely lacking in what the CDs usually want: living slaves. True, they could get some unliving ones, but who knows when they might collapse? (or multiply exponentially in the magic phase and rebel) :)
I could certainly see the CDs selling kit to Vampires… the daemon binding thing is interesting. Personally I hate the concept, but I think to make it work fluffwise it should be done in a way that allows the CDs to get their own daemons to bind… I can’t imagine any CD willingly building an economy/lifestyle that is reliant on anyone else, particularly any lesser race.
As for stonking great mountain ranges, the Empire sends trade caravans to Cathay, which mens 2 mountain ranges, the CDs, the Ogres, the Hobgoblins…
Finally, I don’t see Hashut as a chaos god, although I suspect the design team differ from me on that. Using the D&D definitions, I see CDs and Hashut as Lawful Evil rather than Chaotic Evil. They want an ordered world under their total dominion, not total chaos, which is what chaos stands for.
but I think to make it work fluffwise it should be done in a way that allows the CDs to get their own daemons to bind... I can't imagine any CD willingly building an economy/lifestyle that is reliant on anyone else, particularly any lesser race.
That seems to be what the situation is - they enslave daemons.
Finally, I don't see Hashut as a chaos god, although I suspect the design team differ from me on that.
And, like, all the fluff.
I see CDs and Hashut as Lawful Evil rather than Chaotic Evil. They want an ordered world under their total dominion, not total chaos, which is what chaos stands for.
Trying to make Warhammer fit the D&D alignment system (or the old D&D alignment system, I should say) usually doesn't work that well. For a start, "chaos" means different things in each setting. You would hardly accuse a Tzeentchian cabal that has infiltrated Imperial society of being without structure or order, for example. Chaos doesn't just break stuff at random.
No, but chaos essentially exists to break stuff, however random (or not) the breakage is. I haven’t been playing as long as most people here - What eveidence is where about Hashut’s origins? He’s obviously a chaos god with respect to the fact that he can interact with them and so on, but I more meant that he is a separate force from the gods of the hordes, with a very different agenda.
Yea, but wheredo the demons come from? I assume the Dwarfs must go demonhunting or something, I don’t think demons wander around too much south of the wastes except on special occasions (raids, chaotic comets, wars, birthday parties, and the like).
I think you are all being unfair on the “barbarians”. They might not have the same culture as the Empire, but they aren’t all bloodthirsty people. 99% of the time they are regular people who hunt and grow food. The Chaos gods are just a part of nature in the place where they live, like the rain is in the Empire, so they deal with it. The occasional invasion at the request of the gods who rules over them is no different to a seasonal harvest, if you don’t do it then you won’t survive long.
To answer the original question, I’d certainly prefer them to be non-chaos, but accept that there may be a lot more allusions to Hashut being a chaos god in the future.
What eveidence is where about Hashut's origins?
Not much, but he is
a "Chaos God".
Yea, but wheredo the demons come from?
I think the idea is that they're summoned. Daemons can manifest anywhere that has sufficient magical energy, or the things specific kinds of daemons are attracted to (blood, plague, sex, etc.).
heck i don’t even want to deal with other cd not alone just chaos!! I think cd provide part to all armys!!!
deamon are to scared to leve the realm of chaos!!! even for partys
I wasn’t being unfair on my own account, only that of the Chaos Dwarfs, who I suspect would see the barbarians in much the rather bigoted way I posted.
I personally think that the Chaos Dwarfs will trade with Chaos (warriors and beasts) as well as Ogres, some greenskins and anyone else willing to trade. But I do not feel that Hashut is currently part of the Chaos Gods, he is seperate from them (either he left or was kicked out I’m not sure) at this time.
The thing is, there are lots of Chaos gods. It’s not like there’s a set pantheon: it’s a continuum from the lowliest Nurgling to the Four Brothers, with no taxonomic difference. It’s all just a matter of power. Daemons and Daemon Princes and Chaos Gods, they’re all just warp entities, and Hashut is obviously something at the more powerful end of this spectrum. He’s not going to be as powerful as Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle or Tzeentch, but he’s certainly a thing of Chaos.
I try and compair my CD’s to the “Outside World”. Putting the obvious “Dwarfs are mini-Vikings and CD’s are mini-Assyrians” looks aside, I really think the agenda is that Dwarfs represent the USA and Russia durring The Cold War.
For example, both types of Dwarfs are in essence the same people - Dwarfs.
However, based on region and religion, have chosen different paths, much like Russia had Communism and America had Democracy. (At the time folks!)
Dwarfs are also stubborn. Both sides think they’re right. Both sides don’t want to change.
Dwarfs are very “Tradition” oriented - they’ll stick to their Book of Grudges, customs, rituals, etc. This is mirrored in US Patritism - pride in winning WWII, “Red, White and Blue Forever”, Pride in Civil War ending for The Union, Pride in Freedom, etc.
Chaos Dwarfs are very “Industrial” oriented - they make machinery for war, bind deamons, enslave other nations to operate machinery, provide arms to “evil” nations and worship a god who stands for both superior strength and superior inventiveness. Hashut = The Soviet Bear.
As for trade partners, the Dwarfs trade with the Empire who they see as a promising nation working for good. This would be like the USA trading with Canada. If they trade with Bretonia, it’s simular to the USA trading with Britton. Again, nations working for good.
Chaos Dwarfs are protecting the Hobgoblins from the rest of the Goblin nations. I view the Hobgoblins as Romanians in the fact that, like the U.S.S.R. of old, had many satelite countries, these being Romania, Hungary, Yougoslavia, etc. Goblins and Hobgoblins also had the “Cultural Split” like Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs. Therefore, in the CD world, the Hobgoblin nations are like the CD satelite countries. Partners working to keep up “Evil”.
As for trade with WoC, Ogres and Orcs & Goblins, I look at this as the trade between old C.C.C.P. and their side of the world. The Ogre Kingdoms would be like Albania in the 1980’s. They’d be the muscle with weapons provided by C.C.C.P. to disrupt trade and other things. to run “Interfearance” with USA. WoC would be like giving weapons to Cuba, a power that’s close to the USA, but still smart enough not to really attack, but cause trouble and tension none the less.
I’ll agree that CD’s follow a “Lawfull Evil” structure with the idea that they’re trying to further their evil plans by trading with partners that are “Evil Aligned”. CD’s would have their millitary heirarchy, like soilders, sergents, corporals, generals, admirals, etc. They’d also have their scientists, special guards, secret police, etc.
Also remeber that the CD’s are binding “Deamons”. Think of this like Russians splitting atoms and harnessing nucelar energies. CD’s also have Death Rockets, Earth Shakers and Hell Cannons. All this would be like Russian/Nazi Germany technology combined after WWII.
Anyway, that’s my opinion of the CD’s.
I don’t think that analogy works that well. Chaos Dwarfs are a pretty minor part of the Warhammer world - a Cold War metaphor puts them a little more front and centre than they probably should be.
Personally, I’d rather have the CD’s worship minor Chaos deities like Hashut, be aligned with/allied with other Chaos forces to a degree either through trade or warring but effectively beyond the reach of the ruinous powers - no really odd mutations or gifts, etc. I don’t think they should have access to daemons in the same way as other Chaos armies, e.g: their summoning rituals are designed for engineering and take a long time to perform and is only for the benefit of binding a daemon to metal and so is far different from using summoning/binding on the battlefield. All their daemons would be enslaved as weapons, armour or mechanical constructs, etc.
I feel like this mainly because I think the CDs need to maintain some unique qualities to seperate them from the other Chaos armies. Their remote location in the Warhammer world means that they are beyond the direct touch of Chaos and so Chaos would only be lightly felt outside of worship.
I think that’s exactly what the situation currently is (in as much as anything is “current”), GRNDL.
Is there only four chaos gods that govern the realm of chaos, I mean are we in the mind set that the four brother control all of that realm? The four have greatly different styles. IMO- if i were to write the fluff there would be tons of gods with a great war that allowed the four brothers to take hold of the realm of chaos. Hashut would be one of the many defeated god.
They might not have the same culture as the Empire, but they aren’t all bloodthirsty people. 99% of the time they are regular people who hunt and grow food. The Chaos gods are just a part of nature in the place where they live, like the rain is in the Empire, so they deal with it. The occasional invasion at the request of the gods who rules over them is no different to a seasonal harvest, if you don’t do it then you won’t survive long.
This is how I imagine chaos dwarfs, I don’t see the whole of the population devoted completely and entirely to hushat. I see it as 100% of the chaos dwarfs worship hushat on sundays… but the rest of the week 90% of the population is doing their own gig, binding deamons and such.
IMO- I would trade my armor for anything of value to me; slaves, deamons, hoes, tools rare ore from distant lands, gems. Sure we get most of the tools of our trade from the mountains but there is always someone out there with something rare.