This is more of an idea generator but as posed in the “GW raises prices again” thread I posed in a round about way: “Do we really need GW at this point?” my answer is no.
GW produces rules to sell minis, that’s where they make their money. Well duh I hear you say. Take a step back. I’d buy Baggranor’s minis before anything from FW or GW now. So just why do people Need to buy GW minis? The answer is they don’t.
Next consider the IP police and what GW thinks they can copyright. Again really?
Once you make some of these leaps of logic the question that really stands out is why is GW needed at all?
To which I answer: they aren’t.
Their business model as bloat in it and reasons why the don’t do “X”. “we can’t do that minor game (Man O War, etc, because it detracts from space marines”. We have to limit the number of armies because of shelf space in our stores, and so on".
Point I’m making is the plan already exists to topple GW in what Pathfinder did to D&D; i.e just make compatible with everyone’s existing minis and you have a good starting point.
Ontop of that a new endeavor has nowhere near the overhead of GW.
In terms of startup costs you could fund it via a kickstarter.
In terms of writers, look at the writers on this site. As far as sculptors look at the likes of Baggronor or tjub. (not implying they would do this, just examples.
The biggest problem I can see is the drive to complete this… This would be on a order of magnitude that would make organizing the Word of Hashut look small. It would take an iron fist relentlessly driving this forwards and beating into compliance those involved… If designed by committee it would be a disaster.
The point in its favor is to develop working rules, which if I understand Flames of War started as just that.
I like that there are police officers, but that doesn’t mean I want them parked outside my house watching me in case I commit any crimes. I can enjoy something without necessarily wanting it to impinge on what I’m doing day to day - Chaos Dwarfs are unique and I liked doing them from scratch, but I wouldn’t want to make my own Warhammer in the same way.
This is more of an idea generator but as posed in the “GW raises prices again” thread I posed in a round about way: “Do we really need GW at this point?” my answer is no.
GW produces rules to sell minis, that’s where they make their money. Well duh I hear you say. Take a step back. I’d buy Baggranor’s minis before anything from FW or GW now. So just why do people Need to buy GW minis? The answer is they don’t.
Next consider the IP police and what GW thinks they can copyright. Again really?
Once you make some of these leaps of logic the question that really stands out is why is GW needed at all?
To which I answer: they aren’t.
Their business model as bloat in it and reasons why the don’t do “X”. “we can’t do that minor game (Man O War, etc, because it detracts from space marines”. We have to limit the number of armies because of shelf space in our stores, and so on".
Point I’m making is the plan already exists to topple GW in what Pathfinder did to D&D; i.e just make compatible with everyone’s existing minis and you have a good starting point.
Ontop of that a new endeavor has nowhere near the overhead of GW.
In terms of startup costs you could fund it via a kickstarter.
In terms of writers, look at the writers on this site. As far as sculptors look at the likes of Baggronor or tjub. (not implying they would do this, just examples.
The biggest problem I can see is the drive to complete this… This would be on a order of magnitude that would make organizing the Word of Hashut look small. It would take an iron fist relentlessly driving this forwards and beating into compliance those involved… If designed by committee it would be a disaster.
The point in its favor is to develop working rules, which if I understand Flames of War started as just that.
If you have no competition you have a monopoly. With monopolies you get stagnation. So for me, monoplies aren’t great things.
I wrote an RPG years ago and dabbled with it for years. It was a massive thing: main rule book 400+ pages; 200 page plus add ons etc… In the end it was too monolithic in scope.
I guess when I compare it a war game is significantly smaller…
Who says there’s a monopoly? There’s plenty of competition out there. Obviously there’s a market leader, but you can’t do much about that - except support the competition. Maybe chuck Mantic some money for their Kickstarter or something?
I’ve been voting whit my wallet for years… But I will keep playing the game, I buy the rules I need and the rest I make of get 2nd hand. I know I’m not allone in this, but does it help? I wouldn know…
You both make some great points, I like many am unhappy with the way that GW keep raising their prices and i do think that this will hurt them in time but the main problem is people keep paying the higher prices.
I like tommy would be sad to see GW gone, they are a great company that has dragged its self-up to be the best in its chosen field and they should be applauded for that.
I look back to the 90’s when I think GW was in its prime it still had that up and coming feel about it and it really cared about its customers old and new it felt like it had a more personal touch i even got a few Christmas cards from the legend that is Paul Sawyer , I know these where printed on mass but it was still nice.
I now buy most of my models through independent stockists rather than GW as my small form of protest but it�?Ts still money going to GW at the end of the day but what can I say I like what they do , I like the models the back ground and books it�?Ts just a shame that the prices keep going up and up.
I for one hope GW shrink enough to catch their sound sense and lower prices. To that end, I recommend supporting Mantic or Avatars of War in order to create important competition. Do contemplate AoW’s crowdfunding project, because whole armies of AoW models will be at least up to the standard of GW, if not the best on the market: http://www.indiegogo.com/aow-dwarfs?c=home
Both Mantic and AoW are budding, this far succesful companies with the aims on creating a whole game universe with background, rule books and miniatures. Mantic have reached further than AoW thanks to their cheap hard plastic kits, but AoW, which started out as a arena game and alternative character models, is sure to climb as long as they retain their quality. Whilst Mantic have built considerable support and almost collected $ 50,000 in a matter of days for their kickstarter, AoW’s funding campaign is slower, with $ 4,375 collected in three days. If support through crowdfunding should be given, give it to AoW.
The fine thing here in Sweden is that there are no GW tournaments as far as I’m aware, and thus our gaming group can easily mix and match GW, AoW, Mantic models and more at will for our armies.
It feels odd to me that people would be upset at Games Workshop over pricing to the point that they would refuse to buy their product, yet continue to use their rules. Between the dozens and dozens of miniature games out there with full support, there is a huge amount of option for the gamer-inclined. Games Workshop does not have a monopoly. Privateer Press is more than evidence of that. To be enraged by the pricing strategy, yet continue to indirectly support that company, has a duplicitous feel to it. If somebody is really that upset, then move on. A quick google search shows upwards of a hundred different miniature companies, all with full rules and many with full miniature lines (Warmahordes/Infinity/upcoming Confrontation/Malefeaux to mention a very short few). The hobby isn’t a privilege, it’s a hobby, and an expensive hobby at that. You either buy in, or you play a different game.
A thought about beginning costs: I’ve been pretty lucky. I’ve been involved with a company called Dias Ex Machina from its inception, and now have published material in a few game magazines, under OGL, and under the 4th edition licence. That said, this shit is hard. I’ve seen what the company owner had to go through to get this bird off of the ground, and it wasn’t pretty - you have to be dedicated to a near-autism spectrum in order to make this kind of thing work. What Paizo has done didn’t work because they had a good idea. There were hundreds of companies that thought of it at the exact same time as Paizo - the Enworld production forums were proof enough of that. What Paizo did have, however, was a near household name within gamer communities. Not only did they have a near household name, but they also had a malleable system with which they could work within (OGL). Somebody trying to “topple” games workshop (which I find ludicrous in of itself, which not support other companies, instead of spending so much time hating one that made you love games) will not have that kind of support, or infrastructure.
TLDR version: If you hate GW, play a different game. There are many other companies out there that would love to make you a customer, and will treat you as you feel you should be.
You've mentioned my own Chaos Dwarf rules, Willmark, and my reaction to Chaos Dwarfs finally returning to mainstream Warhammer through WF. You make a fair point, but I want to point out that I never positioned myself in opposition to anyone, least of all GW - the company that created the game and models that have provided me with so much enjoyment over many years. I didn't write my own Chaos Dwarf book because I was angry: I wrote it because I wanted to and the incidental fact that there wasn't a real, current one made it a viable project. I wouldn't re-write an actual modern Armies book; it would be (if possible) even more pointless an endeavour. My dismay about the WF thing was also more about the community's reaction, and the way that it came just when we probably needed it least! It was ironic, and I don't think I was the only one to have an odd sense of deflation afterwards.
But, you know, if you want to start something and make your own game or whatever, I think that's great. I've been writing stuff for Titan Wargames for a little while now and Baggronor wants to produce his own game with rules and a proper book someday, I think. I wouldn't be at all averse to getting in on the ground floor with another, similar project if you were to start one...but I think having the explicit aim of sticking it to another company is probably not something you want to be advertising if that's what it really is all about!
It feels odd to me that people would be upset at Games Workshop over pricing to the point that they would refuse to buy their product, yet continue to use their rules.
khedyarl
Why? the Warhammer community is quite big, and its eazy to find a new opponent or a small tournament to attend. If I would start playing whatever obscure game, I would find it hard to find a opponent or even a tournament, I would have to paint up an entire new army that I might end up never using.
Oh and I like the rule system (to an extend) and I've been playing for 18 years. so no I wont buy their new expensive stuff, but yes I will keep playing their game.
Kings of War by Mantic seems to be gaining traction from what I have read elsewhere, giving out the rules for free seems to have helped!
There is a flaw in the overall idea though - if any one system was good enough then people wouldn’t bother ever updating what they currently use to the new edition. GW gets around it by being the easiest place to go for gaming in many areas and enforcing recent rulesets. If they didn’t have that then there would be a significant amount of inertia for each edition, which is why so few gaming companies update their rules anywhere near as often. There is a major question of whether an independent hobby store in each area would survive even if GW was taken out of the picture now that online ordering is so prevalent.
It could be done, even “open-sourced” (which would be awesome, and is very possible), but it would still be just another non-GW game that won’t be played by many people simply because they don’t have anywhere to play it.
I’m not sure about Europe (continental or otherwise), but I know that in Canada and the States, Warmachine/Hordes has become huge. There are more (probably because of the inherently tournament-friendly rule set and quicker games) tournaments for WarmaHordes than Games Workshop in my location.