Sandy Death:
Hi Members,
Has anyone ever used Hobgoblin Darts?
Here’s what they are and the way they work. A minimum strenght and un-equipted unit of 10 HGs costs 20 points. Buy about 8 of these units for 160 points. Arrange the 10 HGs in five ranks of two (not 2 ranks of 5) and send them out toward enemy units at an angle (Preferably high cost units like Bret Lances, Lizzy Saurus and Chaos warrior blocks)
Angle them in front of those units so they can’t move. If they charge they’ll be hitting the HGs flank. Thus exposing their own flank to a charge the next turn. If that unit refuses to charge the HG unit, so what? You tied up a 250 point enemy unit for a couple of turns at a mear cost of 20 points. If you’re clever, with 2 units of HGs you might be able to redirect the whole enemy unit off the board.
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These random units of HGs scurring around the board won’t attract much attention. Would a High Elf player waste a firing round of RBTs or archers on a 20 point HG unit? Besides blocking and misdirecting enemy units a unit of HGs can hit an enemy unit in the flank during a multi-unit charge. That inexpensive unit will take away from combat resolution 3 enemy ranks and give you +1 for a flank attack. Not bad for 20 points.
Sandy Death
Joshmohr:
Looks like i could work, But i’d prefer Ranks of 20 archers… Hehe much better for meat shields.
Da Crusha:
Ive thought of using them like this and have done it only a few times before. they are nice to counter charge with because your opponent will get minimum amount of attacks back on them because they only have a frontage of 2 and they can still negate ranks and give a flank bonus. the biggest problem I have with using so many “darts” is that they are extremely unreliable, 1/3 chance of doing something you dont want them to do.
I always bring at least 2 or 3 units of 10 hobgobbos to redirect, countercharge, meatshield, capture table quarters, and bait and flee tactics.
KramDratta:
@Sandy Death: I had never heard of this idea, but gave it a go yesterday in a game vs Dark Elves & I admit I was very impressed. With the formation of 2 wide & their Hatred, I was able to re-direct his army and slow it down in general. Kudos to you for sharing.
One thing I found a bit difficult to get grips with is to use them as bait to expose the enemy’s flank. Can anyone with more experience at this show me an example how to setup? I am unsure of what angle the dart should be in relation with the enemy & my other unit.
Cheers
Da Crusha:
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so what you want to do is set it up kind of like this. the DE unit will have to charge or sit around not doing much, if he charges he will undoubtedly win combat and be forced to persue/overrun because of hatred. the average roll is 7". he should end up right in front of your unit with his flank exposed
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KramDratta:
@Da Crusha: Thanks 4 taking the time to explain. Appreciated.
So from your diagram I should get the H’s angled in such a way so that the (avg) 7" overrun of the D’s would expose their flank to the X’s, whilst at the same time making sure that the X’s are not charged by the overrun.
Da Crusha:
So from your diagram I should get the H's angled in such a way so that the (avg) 7" overrun of the D's would expose their flank to the X's, whilst at the same time making sure that the X's are not charged by the overrun.
KramDratta
ohh uh sorry I'll explain what they are, D=chaos dwarfs, H=hobgoblins, X=dark elves so ill change your statement:
So from your diagram I should get the Hobgoblins angled in such a way so that the (avg) 7" overrun of the darkelves would expose their flank to the chaos dwarves, whilst at the same time making sure that the chaos dwarves are not charged by the overrun.
after I have placed all of these changes then, yes that is how it works. I have made some changes to post #5 so that you can see the dwarves do not move in the diagram only the dark elves have moved, killed all of the hobgoblins and have overrun, and are now sitting with their flank exposed to the to the chaos dwarves. this would be the end of the dark elf players turn and then its your turn to charge the exposed flank.
Sandy Death:
Hi Members,
I’m glad you are enjoying this idea. I thought of this after I saw a HE eagle, 50 points, plant itself in front of a bretonnian lance (mine costing 240 points) at an angle. I could not move the horse column away from the eagle and could not sit there because his RBTs were taking a toll. So I charged and he fled ( but the eagle rallied next turn). My charging lance was now out of the battle and blocking another lance.
I thought that was a great tactical usage of 50 points. Then I saw 10 HGs could do a similar manouver. Granted they don’t have the 20 inch move the eagle does but at a cost of 20 points how wrong could CDs go if they used 5 of these units.
Sandy Death
So from your diagram I should get the H’s angled in such a way so that the (avg) 7" overrun of the D’s would expose their flank to the X’s, whilst at the same time making sure that the X’s are not charged by the overrun.
KramDratta
ohh uh sorry I’ll explain what they are, D=chaos dwarfs, H=hobgoblins, X=dark elves so ill change your statement:
So from your diagram I should get the Hobgoblins angled in such a way so that the (avg) 7" overrun of the darkelves would expose their flank to the chaos dwarves, whilst at the same time making sure that the chaos dwarves are not charged by the overrun.
after I have placed all of these changes then, yes that is how it works. I have made some changes to post #5 so that you can see the dwarves do not move in the diagram only the dark elves have moved, killed all of the hobgoblins and have overrun, and are now sitting with their flank exposed to the to the chaos dwarves. this would be the end of the dark elf players turn and then its your turn to charge the exposed flank.
Da Crusha
Da Crusha:
sandy death: where did you get the name dart? does that come from somewhere or did you make it up?
KramDratta:
@Da Crusha: Ahhhhh now it makes more sense. Thanks again for the time to clearing this up.
@Sandy Death: I agree with you. Although HG don’t charge 20", having multiple cheap units is a plus for us.
One of the variations that I am trying is to flank with a HG dart of 13 (works wonders against enemies with hatred and/or frenzy) Even is a few are killed , there will still be some left that will break (unless I roll a double 1) and the enemy will have to pursue, thus breaking up his battle line and hopefully screwing his game.
All this with 26 points. The reasons I prefer 13 over 10 is due to panic tests. Up to 10 HG if 3 models die by magic or mundane missiles , I have to take a Ld6 test (not good). For an extra 2 points, they have to kill 4 models to cause the test.
Sandy Death:
Hi,
The keys to making this tactic work is the WFB rule that says the defending unit stays stationary and the attacking unit aligns itself
up with the defender within the attacker’s front arc. You want to place the 20 point HB unit in front of your opponent’s high cost unit so that he can’t avoid hitting it if he moves. So what you have to do is visualize your opponent’s next turn.
If you do this properly your opponent’s high cost unit wil have three choices:
1. Charge. If you angled the HBs say at a 45-60 degree angle his unit will now be facing toward the side of the game table and opened to a flank attack.
2. Reform. While this avoids your unit, it ruins his game plan for two turns.
3. Sit there and do nothing and hope shooting or magic can elliminate the HBs.
What ever the opponent does, it doesn’t matter. For 20 points you’ve altered his attack plans.
If you use 5 of these HB darts the cost is only 100 points. Even if only one of them accomplishes its mission, they’ve paid for themselves.
Sandy
@Sandy Death: I had never heard of this idea, but gave it a go yesterday in a game vs Dark Elves & I admit I was very impressed. With the formation of 2 wide & their Hatred, I was able to re-direct his army and slow it down in general. Kudos to you for sharing.
One thing I found a bit difficult to get grips with is to use them as bait to expose the enemy’s flank. Can anyone with more experience at this show me an example how to setup? I am unsure of what angle the dart should be in relation with the enemy & my other unit.
Cheers
KramDratta
Yaghnu Nigamwamp:
Yes, I use them. Not always in ‘dart’ formation, but I have.
I’ve found that they are useful, however with a 6" charge range on most of our units, it is still difficult to actually reach the redirected unit with a charge. I find I have to use Orcs, Bull Centaurs or Wolfboyz.
Wolfboy units can do the same thing with a much greater range. They cost a lot more, but it can be worth it to set up a flank charge by Bull Centaurs.
Servius:
I have used dart tactics with O&G armies an VC before… they will work ok… but there is really no way to make a unit unable to move… as you MUST remain more than 1" away from the enemy unless you charge. your also doing a bad comparative on the units… as your doing it on a 1 to 1 basis… where are the other say 5 units of bret knights… You have to remember that the dart has been overdone and most good players will react to them well. your also expecting the unit to break. remember if your general is within 12 you MUST use his LD. same goes for a BSB… you MUST reroll the failed breaks.
Another point to make is that most people consider this game to have 2 forms… Friendly and Competitive. The first just being a game for fun and the latter being for either tournaments or preparement of a tournament… If your playing the prior… How does exploiting a unit formation to give you an advantage show to your wanting to have fun?.?.? In the Latter i would say ok… your trying to win the game at all costs… thats fine… (let me find my pin for that sportsmenship score sheet.)
Ending… I think it comes to this… its a one trick pony… you will get what you want once vs an opponent and they will formulate a strategy that trumps it making it a disadvantage to you… Especially when the tactic is considered exploitative such as Conga Lines, “Darts” as you call them, Bunkers, Etc
Da Crusha:
I really dont think using this technique would ever cost me points to sportsmanship score, ever, EVER. if the unit holds, wouldnt that mean the unit, that couldnt even break a 10 hobgobbo unit while charging a flank, would be held up even longer, which IS one of the main points of the strategy?
Servius:
think 4th dimensionally… so the unit holds the turn charged… in the example bret knights… it may have been due to a less than favorable roll… next round the unit will most likely lose by enough to break it… leaving the unit on their turn to charge the unit you had originally set up to counter charge…
Having had my sportsmenship docked for such things as losing 2/3s of my army in the first turn before i have moved due to a poor round of LD tests caused from a unit fleeing through my lines from a shaggoth. as still pulling a draw, to calling a judge to explain why a unit of Dragon Ogres couldnt charge a unit in a building, and finally getting a 0 because I rerolled a cocked dice without asking if it was ok to. Players can be very fickle when it comes to sportsmenship… some simply give hits to it because they lost the game. others give truthful examples… I base my scoring on 2 things how my opponent played his army (i.e. did he play wanting to have a fun game or did he simply play to win at all costs) and secondly how was his attitude as a player during the game. with the latter taking presidence over the prior. but I digress…
The only problem I see with the tactic is that is has many ways to go wrong vs a good player. especially armies with magical movement capability a side shuffle in movement putting the gobs in the frontal charge and then lurking or dansing the unit will cause you major issues. Also it relies on the fact that the unit in question revolves around the overrun… being as the unit has no banner… and is dirt cheap its not all the of a bonus to. So only frenzied or hateful units will be subject to it. It also relies partly on the distance rolled… with a charge of 6 that will require that the unit be decently close to get the charge in… and considering that the hob unit will most likely in its form will be a good 4 to 5 inches behind the last model in the unit if the unit doesnt overrun it far from a certain charge. Also getting the units in this position is an issue as they pretty much have to start at 5 wide then run up next turn wheel and move and then turn to the left/right… either way your going to have alot of setup and need a good 2 if not 3 turns to get it done… and if your playing a heavy cavalry list… and even elves… your probably not going to get that chance.
I have run this tactic before and found it to be wasteful as even though its nothing for points… they could be better used to screen the warriors than sitting in front of them baiting charges. I had more success with a unit of Sneaky Gits as a dart than stock gobbos. as they could get hit in the front and with general’s ld and BSB they could usually hold leaving me a turn to get Maneaters or a unit of warriors into the flank… they would have next to nothing to the front and they could even win combat by 1 and cant turn to face the flankers. and the 2 attacks with poison is nice vs some tougher foes expecially when you can wait a turn before you increase your front with the gits. But this contends with a Special choice which can be an issue for most players.
Sandy Death:
Hi members,
This tactic of using a small throw-away unit isn’t meant to win the whole battle. It is simply one tool that a CD player can use to help himself.
I would say this Dart being hit in the flank by a powerful unit would need double ones even when using the general’s LD and the BSBs rerolls.
I don’t think it is fair to say this is unsportsman like when it works. Using the “Dart” or whatever you want to call gives your opponent a chance to counter this tactic and thus feel good about himself.
And how much different is this tactic to neutralize a powerful enemy unit from that of pounding that unit with magic or cannon fire?
What I think is unsportsman like is running into a Dwarf or Empire player with an all shooty army who simply stands back and pulverizes his opponent from a distance. Or a Lizzy or VC or TK who goes super heavy magic. Or a Lizzy player using 100 Skinks or a Bret player with 8 lances?
Sandy death
think 4th dimensionally… so the unit holds the turn charged… in the example bret knights… it may have been due to a less than favorable roll… next round the unit will most likely lose by enough to break it… leaving the unit on their turn to charge the unit you had originally set up to counter charge…
Having had my sportsmenship docked for such things as losing 2/3s of my army in the first turn before i have moved due to a poor round of LD tests caused from a unit fleeing through my lines from a shaggoth. as still pulling a draw, to calling a judge to explain why a unit of Dragon Ogres couldnt charge a unit in a building, and finally getting a 0 because I rerolled a cocked dice without asking if it was ok to. Players can be very fickle when it comes to sportsmenship… some simply give hits to it because they lost the game. others give truthful examples… I base my scoring on 2 things how my opponent played his army (i.e. did he play wanting to have a fun game or did he simply play to win at all costs) and secondly how was his attitude as a player during the game. with the latter taking presidence over the prior. but I digress…
The only problem I see with the tactic is that is has many ways to go wrong vs a good player. especially armies with magical movement capability a side shuffle in movement putting the gobs in the frontal charge and then lurking or dansing the unit will cause you major issues. Also it relies on the fact that the unit in question revolves around the overrun… being as the unit has no banner… and is dirt cheap its not all the of a bonus to. So only frenzied or hateful units will be subject to it. It also relies partly on the distance rolled… with a charge of 6 that will require that the unit be decently close to get the charge in… and considering that the hob unit will most likely in its form will be a good 4 to 5 inches behind the last model in the unit if the unit doesnt overrun it far from a certain charge. Also getting the units in this position is an issue as they pretty much have to start at 5 wide then run up next turn wheel and move and then turn to the left/right… either way your going to have alot of setup and need a good 2 if not 3 turns to get it done… and if your playing a heavy cavalry list… and even elves… your probably not going to get that chance.
I have run this tactic before and found it to be wasteful as even though its nothing for points… they could be better used to screen the warriors than sitting in front of them baiting charges. I had more success with a unit of Sneaky Gits as a dart than stock gobbos. as they could get hit in the front and with general’s ld and BSB they could usually hold leaving me a turn to get Maneaters or a unit of warriors into the flank… they would have next to nothing to the front and they could even win combat by 1 and cant turn to face the flankers. and the 2 attacks with poison is nice vs some tougher foes expecially when you can wait a turn before you increase your front with the gits. But this contends with a Special choice which can be an issue for most players.
Servius
Servius:
Heres the point in me saying the tactic is too much work… so 5 deep is going to be just under 5" long causing your CD unit to be rather close to your hob unit… being as most units of infantry in my experience are 6 wide and most cav are 5 wide… it would easy for them to use their charge to engage most in such a way as to over lap the unit in a manner as to overrun into your counter charger. if your farther back fromthe hobs your ending up relying on overrun bringing the unit into charge range. and if they dont you get hosed. as you cant charge and may receive one in return. the problem i see with it comes down to 3 things…
1: The Tactic while good on paper is less so in practice
2: Setup is extremely difficult considering the relative movements involved in getting it ready
3: There are better ways to get a unit of warriors into the flank of a unit
on a lighter note… as an extension of your comment… No tactic or series of them will be a “Game Winner” What wins games is the player’s ability to react to conditions when they happen.
As far as the examples you give… thats not exactly the best examples of bad sportmenship… Bad Composition Yes… sports… not exactly… Sportsmenship is HOW your opponent plays the army… I have played gunlines that have both angered me and others that i walked away happy… it all comes down to the player attitude… now if I say saw a gunline that was using guess ranges to hit units they otherwise couldnt see… thats bad sports…
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The Machine aims to the center of “@” and guesses 29" when its clear the machine cant legally draw LOS to the unit beyond but purposely guesses to it anyway. Taking the D.A. - using a hob goblin unit in a formation that would not be even remotely standard for their type to gain an advantage can be seen as abuse of a rule.
Bassman:
Taking the D.A. - using a hob goblin unit in a formation that would not be even remotely standard for their type to gain an advantage can be seen as abuse of a rule.
Servius
Said that I agree with you that hobgoblin darts are NOT the ultimate tool to win battles, I cannot agree here.
Guessing 29" to hit an unit 12" far away is clearly a trick to hit the unit behind you cannot see. This is unfair and I always point it to my opponent. Nobody ever argued.
Using an unit in 2x5 formation is not cheating, you still need movements and tactics to use it properly. It's an option you can use while over guessing is clearly forbidden. If I remember correctly is clearly stated in the rules.
I always think that sportmanship is about composition and attitude. For example if the opponent always complain and discuss every rule, every turn..... :(
Using darts is just a tactic and if we take out tactics from Warhammer... well what are we playing? ;)