[Archive] Are we spending too much on war machines?

Grimbold Blackhammer:

In the never-ending quest to make a competative army list, I began to wonder if I was investing too heavily in our machines of war. I thought a reasonable comparison would be to judge our army against our foul, thin-bearded, oath-breaking cousins. I did a completely unscientific survey of lists posted on Bugman’s Brewery versus some of the lists posted here and compared what percentage of an army is made up of war machines. Interestingly I found Dwarves spend an average of 28% of their army in war machines with an average of 3.4 machines per army. Where as Chaos Dwarf lists average a measily 19% of our points spent on war machines with an average of 2.8 machines per army. Much of the high-price for Dwarves was in the inclusion of an Anvil of Doom but taking that away only dropped the Dwarves percentage to 24%. I was taken by surprise!

Looking at these numbers, it appears to me that A] what we’re spending on magic plus war machines is roughly the same was what Dwarves spend on war machines plus anti-magic, B] our war machines are reasonably costed, and C] I should be shooting for 3ish war machines at 2500 points based on what others are posting.

Food for thought!

Grimbold Blackhammer

Da Crusha:

I was just thinking about this same thing and was going to do an analysis just like this. that was great! thanks Grimbold.

Baggronor:

Regular Dwarfs are also more reliant on their artillery, and theirs is also better; they don’t have magic or fast-moving hammer units like Destroyers/IDs/BCs/Fireborn etc so it does make sense they would spend more on artillery compared to us.

I would think 3 machines is fine at 2500. I am considering a Dreadquake or Hellcannon now though, as the Deathshriekers just don’t kill very much with the str 3 pieplate and I find my Lv2 Daemonsmith’s re-rolls don’t always cover 3 machines (he’s a busy guy).

cornixt:

Do you count the Hellcannon as a war machine? What about an Iron Daemon?

I wonder if runed-up machines are part of the reason for the additional Dwarf costs, plus we don’t have any cheap ones like Bolt Throwers to up the numbers. Any any infantry we field is going to take up a lot of points in general and tip the balance even more the other way.

My list plans on a Magma Cannon, Deathshrieker, and Hellcannon, plus maybe an Iron Daemon or Destroyer.

nilbog:

I’m using a deathshrieker, magma cannon and hellcannon. I used to take two deathshriekers but either 1) another S3 template was redundant or 2) the S8 single shot missed, so swapped it for a hellcannon instead (with a bit of re-jigging to make up the points).

Even considered as a pure war machine, the hellcannon does better than an extra deathshrieker; even if I’m aiming it a monsters and miss with the S10, it usually catches something with the S5 template. It’s even better with the re-roll from a daemonsmith. Plus, of course, it anchors flanks and eats things (sometimes its own crew).

Dwarfs, of course, have a regular cannon (that can be upgraded), which we don’t, plus the organ gun, both of which are spectacularly efficient.

Bitterman:

My list plans on ... maybe an Iron Daemon...

cornixt
Don't bother. It's guns aren't anywhere near good enough to justify the points alone, and on the basis that it's practically impossible to charge with it if your enemy doesn't want to let you, it's unlikely to do much good in combat either. Skullcrusher version is even worse - no shooting. Better in combat, but it may never get there... and if by some chance it should come up against an Ogre army, it's completely useless in combat too (no Thunderstomp against Monstrous Infantry, so 340 points for three S3 attacks is not good value).

Shame. I love both the models, especially the Skullcrusher, but on the tabletop I've learned they are the next best thing to useless.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I counted Hellcannons, Iron Daemons, Magma Cannons, Deathshreiker Rockets, Dreadquake Mortars as “war machines” in my totals.  I realize some do double duty as monsters and whatnot but I was only looking for a rough guesstimate anyway.  I was thinking I was spending way to much on war machines but it turns out, according to the university of the Internet, I’m not too far off.

I’ll risk the wrath of other posters and offer these thoughts…  In comparison to regular Dwarves, Chaos Dwarf war machines are pretty well matched with regards to killing power.  War machines with runes on them are generally better than Chaos Dwarf war machines but they cost more.  Both have access to rerolls.  Dwarves have considerable anti-magic abilities but that does not help destroy the enemy where our magic does so the edge falls to Chaos in that regard.  Infantry-wise our units are superior however the Dwarves will typically outnumber us so that’s a fair exchange.  Dwarves have significantly better missile troops where we have significantly better maneuverability.  So in the end, the armies look fairly well match (to me at least) and should offer up some exciting games!

Grimbold Blackhammer

Baggronor:

Better in combat, but it may never get there... and if by some chance it should come up against an Ogre army, it's completely useless in combat too (no Thunderstomp against Monstrous Infantry, so 340 points for three S3 attacks is not good value).
Well, apart from the 2D6 + 2 str 7 impact hits. And the fact it can tarpit pretty much any unit in the game, even Iron Guts/Maneaters. Against Ogres, that's pretty useful.
If you take IDs, take 2-3 and a Destroyer; that way its much harder to avoid them.
In comparison to regular Dwarves, Chaos Dwarf war machines are pretty well matched with regards to killing power. War machines with runes on them are generally better than Chaos Dwarf war machines but they cost more. Both have access to rerolls.
Well, yes and no. When killing bog-standard troops, I'd say LoA actually has a better selection; the Magma Cannon is horrendous. But, crucially, when it comes to anti-monster fire, Dwarf cannons are the best thing in the game. LoA war machines also can't kill skirmishers anywhere near as well as an Organ Gun (though we do have Fireballs). And finally, while the Daemonsmith re-roll can be used for either the scatter or artillery dice, we need a Daemonsmith to use the ability. Dwarf machines can access re-rolls just using runes; this is a big advantage when it comes to deployment as they can be spread out if needed with no worry as to where the re-roll guy is.
Ultimately, its a fairly even balance until the two sides fight each other; the lack of cannons is a significant weakness for LoA in an artillery shoot-out, though our fast units may be able to compensate for this.

Bitterman:

Well, apart from the 2D6 + 2 str 7 impact hits.

Baggronor
But it only gets those impact hits if it charges. And to all intents and purposes, it is only possible for it to charge if your opponent lets it. You have to line it up ready for a charge, then your opponent gets a turn of movement in which they can simply step 2" out of the way (or feed it a 30 point unit of Gnoblars, or charge it themselves), and only then do you get to charge, if they don't do that - perhaps if they're already tarpitted by another unit. Every other unit in the game (AFAIK?) is able to pivot up to 45 degrees before charging; the Iron Daemon can't, and nothing costing 300+ points is ever going to be worth that restriction IMO.

Of course - even if it does get to charge (whether via an opponent's mistake or your own good manouevring) and even if it does then win the combat, it can't chase down a fleeing opponent... uh oh. And should the enemy not flee, it's back to 3 S3 attacks against anything it can't Thunderstomp.

So in damage output terms, it is only any good if it gets to charge (which it finds more difficult to do than any other unit in the game), and if it either wipes out the opponent with impact hits or if it has another friendly unit in the combat that is able to pursue on its behalf (though such a unit is likely to be much less tough than itself so may give away CR and make you more likely to lose the combat!), and/or if the enemy unit you're interested in killing is small enough to Thunderstomp. I'm not saying that makes it completely useless... just that all those ifs make it not worth the points IMO.
And the fact it can tarpit pretty much any unit in the game, even Iron Guts/Maneaters. Against Ogres, that's pretty useful.
If you take IDs, take 2-3 and a Destroyer; that way its much harder to avoid them.
True, it's an awesome tarpit. No arguments there. I'm just curious why an opponent would ever bother getting into combat with it with a unit they didn't want tarpitted, knowing how easy it is to avoid and how good it is as a tarpit.

You may be right that taking multiples is the best way of mitigating that. After all, the enemy can easily sidestep 2" to avoid one Iron Daemon; but if that takes it into the charge line of another, or closer to a Destroyer, then yes - it's much easier for at least one of them to be able to charge. The flaw I see in that plan is that you're by now spending somewhere between 1000 and 1300 points to compensate for a unit not being worth 300ish points (...though the Destroyer is always going to be good value, granted). Can it be made to work? Yes, I'm sure it can. Are there better options in our list to spend 1000 points on? For certain.

Ultimately, that's what it comes down to. Six Bull Centaurs will be dramatically better in almost every situation, than an Iron Daemon Skullcrusher. The only thing they don't have is high Toughness. A Destroyer is also dramatically better, though access to it is more limited (can't get two in 2000 or 2400 points). K'daai are possibly also better, though admittedly they are in some ways more fragile (it's hard to directly compare). The way I see it, the Iron Daemon is basically the fourth best choice for that role in a list where you don't get to take many units... worth taking for the awesome model if you're playing a big game for fun, but not close to competitive.

theforgefather:

one word answer:

yes

Baggronor:

The flaw I see in that plan is that you're by now spending somewhere between 1000 and 1300 points to compensate for a unit not being worth 300ish points
Is it a flaw? Or is it removing soft targets until all that is left is super tough units? If you want VPs, you can fight either my 2 IDs, my Destroyer or you can try and go for the jackpot and grind down my 40 IG with BSB and Lv4, while avoiding my redirecting Khans, magic and Hellcannon fire. Its a bit rock and a hard place imo. Or maybe I'll drop the Hellcannon and pop the Lv4 on a Taurus just to round off the Large Targets of Doom build :)
I'm not saying its the best idea overall (it certainly won't win you any friends) but over 6 games in a competitive environment I suspect the ID/Skullcracker tag team will do better than, say, a mix of BCs and Ironsworn would. They'll certainly deal with 50 Bloodletters or a horde of Savage Orc Big'Uns much more effectively, and these are the sort of units you want to tarpit (as they'll run through pretty much anything else in the LoA) and which can't avoid the IDs due to their large footprint. If you're playing in an environment where people don't take nightmare units like those (and I envy you if you are), then I definitely agree there is less need to run people over with daemonic trains.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

I think you’re both forgetting the real reason to field an Iron Demon - it is a damn awesome model!

Back on topic please. There are already plenty of other places for people to gripe out Iron Demons…

Grimbold Blackhammer

Shimsham:



Baggronor
If you're playing in an environment where people don't take nightmare units like those (and I envy you if you are), then I definitely agree there is less need to run people over with daemonic trains.
Best quote ever!

Just to add a point about the iron deamon. If people can move out of it's way, and they should, doesn't this mean if we are clever we can "herd" the enemy around? This sounds like classic area denial. Similar to a comet of casandora.

I have had only one small game so far with the LoA, (but played orcs and goblins for 15 years), used a death rocket and a magma cannon. Both are good and I would say almost a staple part of the army. I think when you take more than 3 per 1000 points you are going war machine heavy.

gIL^:

I think you're both forgetting the real reason to field an Iron Demon - it is a damn awesome model!

Back on topic please.  There are already plenty of other places for people to gripe out Iron Demons...

Grimbold Blackhammer

Grimbold Blackhammer
You can always use the Iron Daemon model as a hellcannon i wouldnt be against someone doing that.

I only take 2 Deathshriekers with a daemonsmith. We do spend to much on warmachines.

fattdex:

I had an iron daemon idea… what if you position it facing the turn prior at exactly where you don’t want the enemy to go? It would make it suicide for them to move into that position and be charged forcing them to move into a trap somewhere else or take it. Could be a powerful tool, although situational.

MLP:

I had an iron daemon idea... what if you position it facing the turn prior at exactly where you *don't* want the enemy to go? It would make it suicide for them to move into that position and be charged forcing them to move into a trap somewhere else or take it. Could be a powerful tool, although situational.

fattdex
I think this is probably the only decent idea with Iron Daemons. In combination with terrain it's easy to block a route with one Iron Daemon.

On topic though, I totally don't think we spend too much on war machines, we're the damned chaos dwarves! War machines and slavery is what we are known for and slavery is only a tool to fuel our furnaces to build more war machines.

Most of my army lists contain about 20% war machine. In a couple of lists war machines are the ONLY special and rare choices.